|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
Abortion/God/Election - 10/5/2008 9:17:50 PM
|
|
|
birminghamBob
Posts: 1
Joined: 10/5/2008
Status: offline
|
I was just mulling this over in my head and have hit a bit of a snag and was wondering if someone could try and explain it. My logic runs like this...
1. We can assume that the result of the election will be in accordance with God's will.
2. An Obama/Biden administration would support/allow abortion.
3. Obama/Biden may well win the election.
What, if anything, can be deduced from this about God's will? I feel like there is an argument that surely God would want to act to prevent hundreds of future abortions, and that He can influence something as human as an election, but that there is a good chance the Dems will win. How can we reconcile these facts??
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/5/2008 9:28:13 PM
|
|
|
rgsoundguy
Posts: 398
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
|
Why did God allow the holocaust to take place? Why did God allow 9-11 to happen? Why did God allow the tsunami to kill so many people? There are things about God that we just don't understand. As it says in Psalms. His ways are not our ways.
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/5/2008 9:47:37 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
God does according to His will and regardless of the outcome man is accountable for his action. God uses evil for good, yet man it still responsible for his actions...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/5/2008 9:54:12 PM
|
|
|
Psalms274
Posts: 1441
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: birminghamBob
I was just mulling this over in my head and have hit a bit of a snag and was wondering if someone could try and explain it. My logic runs like this...
1. We can assume that the result of the election will be in accordance with God's will.
2. An Obama/Biden administration would support/allow abortion.
3. Obama/Biden may well win the election.
What, if anything, can be deduced from this about God's will? I feel like there is an argument that surely God would want to act to prevent hundreds of future abortions, and that He can influence something as human as an election, but that there is a good chance the Dems will win. How can we reconcile these facts??
Well, look at Herod in the time of Jesus. He was their leader ... and the bible clearly states that God is over that leader ... even the vile ones. Herod ordered the killing of all the male babies over the age of two ... in an attempt to kill Jesus, and God allowed it. He most certainly could have prevented it ... yet it was in no way His will ... His ways and thoughts are not ours. Sometimes He has a bigger purpose that we cannot see, and in some cases will never be able to understand this side of Heaven.
One of my favorite illustrations of this concept was written by Corrie ten Boom in the Hiding Place ... she had such a wonderful way of explaining the very complex in such a simple way ...
quote:
From a ten year old child) “Father, what is sexsin?” He turned to look at me, as he always did when answering a question, but to my surprise he said nothing. At last he stood up, lifted his traveling case from the rack over our heads, and set it on the floor. “Will you carry it off the train, Corrie?” he said. “It's too heavy,” I said. “Yes,” he said. “And it would be a pretty poor father who would ask his little girl to carry such a load. It's the same way, Corrie, with knowledge. Some knowledge is too heavy for children. When you are older and stronger you can bear it. For now you must trust me to carry it for you.” And I was satisfied. More than satisfied – wonderfully at peace. There were answers to this and all my hard questions. For now I was content to leave them in my father's keeping.
For me your question is an example of the kind of knowledge that is too heavy for me ... and I am content to allow my heavenly Father carry it for me.
In regards to this election ... I will not be voting for Senator Obama.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/5/2008 10:47:23 PM
|
|
|
IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1680
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
|
Sovereign Is He - then by what you just said, God will have His way in the election, no matter who will win.. either way, God will have his way.
Thats why Im not worried! Either way, God wins.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/5/2008 10:54:55 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Sovereign Is He - then by what you just said, God will have His way in the election, no matter who will win.. either way, God will have his way.
Thats why Im not worried! Either way, God wins.
God having his way doesn't make the sinful actions of man ok... People supporting evil agendas are still responsible... God used the evil of Joesph's brothers to feed the world yet they didn't kudos for their actions leading to that...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/5/2008 10:55:09 PM
|
|
|
Psalms274
Posts: 1441
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Sovereign Is He - then by what you just said, God will have His way in the election, no matter who will win.. either way, God will have his way.
Thats why Im not worried! Either way, God wins.
He will have His way whether Obama or McCain wins but ... He expects His children to obey Him regardless ... knowing He is always in control never gives us the freewill to sin knowing He works all things for good ... that is a distortion of both His character and His word.
As Paul said in Romans 6 "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"
Your posts sound like God is convicting you to vote for someone you do not wish to vote for ... I do not know for sure because I cannot be privy to what the Holy Spirit is doing with you in your life at this moment, but it certainly appears to be the case based on your posts.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/7/2008 5:49:23 PM
|
|
|
IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1680
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Sovereign Is He - then by what you just said, God will have His way in the election, no matter who will win.. either way, God will have his way.
Thats why Im not worried! Either way, God wins.
Your posts sound like God is convicting you to vote for someone you do not wish to vote for ... I do not know for sure because I cannot be privy to what the Holy Spirit is doing with you in your life at this moment, but it certainly appears to be the case based on your posts.
Hi - now that is a very interesting thing to say which i never even thought of. if thats true I know how Jacob felt when he was wrestling with an angel back in the Old Testament.
Whatever it is that is driving me it is very powerful the disgust that i feel to have to push that button for mccain. Im not saying it is God, but it is so hard for me to do that, i'd almost rather cut my arm off than press that button. can you belive that? wow man...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/7/2008 7:00:29 PM
|
|
|
csl7037
Posts: 1775
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
|
The Election: God establishes the rulers of this world. We have to trust him.
Abortion: As others said, man has free will and there are consequences to our sin.
God's Plan: Just because so many of us are single-issue myopic voters, there's a whole lot more going on in this election both politically and spiritually that He may be concerned with.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/7/2008 7:12:59 PM
|
|
|
raivyne
Posts: 937
Joined: 8/28/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: birminghamBob
I was just mulling this over in my head and have hit a bit of a snag and was wondering if someone could try and explain it. My logic runs like this...
1. We can assume that the result of the election will be in accordance with God's will.
2. An Obama/Biden administration would support/allow abortion.
3. Obama/Biden may well win the election.
What, if anything, can be deduced from this about God's will? I feel like there is an argument that surely God would want to act to prevent hundreds of future abortions, and that He can influence something as human as an election, but that there is a good chance the Dems will win. How can we reconcile these facts??
God isn't voting in this election, people are.
Some of whom are in fellowship with God, some of whom are not; and yet others who only imagine they are.
Either way... God can turn around a bad situation and use it for his glory. His ultimate will be done, because He is in control.
_____________________________
P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/7/2008 7:20:35 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
The Election: God establishes the rulers of this world. We have to trust him.
Abortion: As others said, man has free will and there are consequences to our sin.
God's Plan: Just because so many of us are single-issue myopic voters, there's a whole lot more going on in this election both politically and spiritually that He may be concerned with.
I fail to see how drawing a line regarding the murder of 3500 unborn children is being myopic... I guess its fair to assume those who don't give the issue it's due regard have zero regards for life and generally put their selfish needs ahead of everyone else and what is right...
God's plan includes that the civil government being ordained to deal with evil not sanction it... God allowing sin(not punishing it with instant death each and every time) doesn't grant those He has placed in authority to look the other way... His law stands and those who don't obey will answer for it, even governments for not owning up to their obligations.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/7/2008 7:52:32 PM
|
|
|
small_creation
Posts: 348
Joined: 10/30/2007
From: midwest
Status: offline
|
God's probably not a single-issue voter.
j
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/7/2008 10:39:23 PM
|
|
|
csl7037
Posts: 1775
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I guess its fair to assume those who don't give the issue it's due regard have zero regards for life and generally put their selfish needs ahead of everyone else and what is right...
This is tiresome.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHeGod's plan includes that the civil government being ordained to deal with evil not sanction it... God allowing sin(not punishing it with instant death each and every time) doesn't grant those He has placed in authority to look the other way... His law stands and those who don't obey will answer for it, even governments for not owning up to their obligations.
There are other issues, other "evils" in the world. I firmly believe it's GOD'S PEOPLE, not the government, not the Legislature or the courts that have dropped the ball on abortion. AGAIN, a change in law or the Supreme Court isn't going to change abortion until we get over ourselves, humble ourselves, and get serious about changing the minds and hearts of the American people. That's why I don't "give the abortion issue it's due" - it's not a political issue.
Regardless, abortion is an American issue, and American moral and cultural failure. The world does not revolve around America and I think we're about to get a wakeup call on that. God's big picture plan isn't to rid the world of abortion, it's to redeem the world and ultimately defeat Satan. Big picture, people. There's a lot more going on in the world today than the one or two Right wing hot buttons we've pushed for the last couple decades. That's what I mean by myopic.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/9/2008 1:32:21 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
This is tiresome.
Typical rebuttal...
quote:
There are other issues, other "evils" in the world. I firmly believe it's GOD'S PEOPLE, not the government, not the Legislature or the courts that have dropped the ball on abortion.
That doesn't remove the evil from the issue at hand... And what evidence do you have that the Body of Christ is the blame for abortion? I see this claim a lot, but not much in the way of support...
quote:
AGAIN, a change in law or the Supreme Court isn't going to change abortion until we get over ourselves, humble ourselves, and get serious about changing the minds and hearts of the American people.
People aren't going to change their mind when they can point to the fact that abortion is legal... Even Christians point to the fact it's legal...
quote:
That's why I don't "give the abortion issue it's due" - it's not a political issue.
How is it NOT a political issue?
quote:
Regardless, abortion is an American issue, and American moral and cultural failure.
Yes and due in part to the authority of the land making it legal...
quote:
The world does not revolve around America and I think we're about to get a wakeup call on that.
Actually it does more than most understand... Watch the world as the economy of the US goes down the tube...
quote:
God's big picture plan isn't to rid the world of abortion, it's to redeem the world and ultimately defeat Satan.
So until then anything goes? Isn't the big picture concept used by the current President to wage war in Iraq?
quote:
Big picture, people. There's a lot more going on in the world today than the one or two Right wing hot buttons we've pushed for the last couple decades. That's what I mean by myopic.
What good is America to the rest of the world when it believes it's ok to kill its unborn... People talk about the lack of regard America has for life in other nations... Well... Why should they be surprised....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/9/2008 4:29:49 AM
|
|
|
Longfingers1
Posts: 444
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I guess its fair to assume those who don't give the issue it's due regard have zero regards for life and generally put their selfish needs ahead of everyone else and what is right...
This is tiresome.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHeGod's plan includes that the civil government being ordained to deal with evil not sanction it... God allowing sin(not punishing it with instant death each and every time) doesn't grant those He has placed in authority to look the other way... His law stands and those who don't obey will answer for it, even governments for not owning up to their obligations.
There are other issues, other "evils" in the world. I firmly believe it's GOD'S PEOPLE, not the government, not the Legislature or the courts that have dropped the ball on abortion. AGAIN, a change in law or the Supreme Court isn't going to change abortion until we get over ourselves, humble ourselves, and get serious about changing the minds and hearts of the American people. That's why I don't "give the abortion issue it's due" - it's not a political issue.
Regardless, abortion is an American issue, and American moral and cultural failure. The world does not revolve around America and I think we're about to get a wakeup call on that. God's big picture plan isn't to rid the world of abortion, it's to redeem the world and ultimately defeat Satan. Big picture, people. There's a lot more going on in the world today than the one or two Right wing hot buttons we've pushed for the last couple decades. That's what I mean by myopic.
I actually agree with you.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/9/2008 7:04:02 AM
|
|
|
csl7037
Posts: 1775
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
That doesn't remove the evil from the issue at hand... And what evidence do you have that the Body of Christ is the blame for abortion? I see this claim a lot, but not much in the way of support...
So how's that "Pro Life Movement" worked for you in the last two decades? The very definition of insanity - doing and saying the same things over and over that just run society in the absolute opposite direction. That's why I stopped identifying myself with this "movement" years ago. It's short sighted and counter-productive.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/9/2008 9:38:30 AM
|
|
|
IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1680
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
That doesn't remove the evil from the issue at hand... And what evidence do you have that the Body of Christ is the blame for abortion? I see this claim a lot, but not much in the way of support...
So how's that "Pro Life Movement" worked for you in the last two decades? The very definition of insanity - doing and saying the same things over and over that just run society in the absolute opposite direction. That's why I stopped identifying myself with this "movement" years ago. It's short sighted and counter-productive.
wait, are you saying that you tried to work with a pro-life group and had no results? Can you tell us about that?
also, i firmly beleive that even if our govenrment passed laws that gave unlimited abortion rights, and made everything legal even more than it is today, guess what!!! YOU DONT HAVE TO HAVE AN ABORTION JUST COZ ITS THERE!
We have George Bush a pro-lifer and we have laws the way they are now and we have a pro life movement and still people are continuing to have abortions.
i dont focus on the president to make changes, we ought to work to make changes with each fellow citizen and perhaps even target kids while they are young and teach them the truth about life.
In fact, if we were able to show each mother to be or each person thru the ultrasound scan, they could see a real live baby moving around inside, and that would defer a lot of folks from going ahead with abortions.
maybe we need to target Planned parenthood, rather than at the presidential level.
theres so much we can do no matter who will win the presidency.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/9/2008 10:38:45 AM
|
|
|
csl7037
Posts: 1775
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
wait, are you saying that you tried to work with a pro-life group and had no results? Can you tell us about that?
I was active in college and grad school in a church very mobilized on pro-life activities back in the day of "Operation Rescue". I was as single-minded and emotionally frenzied over the agonies of abortion as anyone. I understand the horror. What I also soon came to realize, which so many "pro-lifers" don't see is how counterproductive the antics and rhetoric of this "movement" have been. I just will not be associated with it and get so tired of people who see every candidate and every election through only that lense...
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
maybe we need to target Planned parenthood, rather than at the presidential level.
theres so much we can do no matter who will win the presidency.
...good point! We got GWB eight years ago...and how much headway have we made exactly in making any legislative changes whatsoever? None! Why would McCain or Palin or anyone else be able to do more?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/11/2008 8:04:07 AM
|
|
|
IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1680
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
|
How are they counter-productive? if you can, in a few short (or long) sentences! if possible.
me as an outsider am surprised to hear that.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/11/2008 12:41:34 PM
|
|
|
csl7037
Posts: 1775
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
How are they counter-productive? if you can, in a few short (or long) sentences! if possible.
me as an outsider am surprised to hear that.
I was horribly turned off and frustrated by the protesting, ranting, emotionalism and, yes, bombings of the late 80's and early 90's. I think that did more for the pro-abortion side than anything they ever did themselves. Thankfully most of that has waned (except the emotionalism) but it hasn't been replaced by any effective advocacy for the pro-life stance. I don't think there will be an effective advocacy tool other than prayer. Abortion laws will not change until the hearts and minds of the people in this country are changed. The antics of the pro-life movement have only turned the general population away and grounded abortion "rights" deeper in the minds of the average American. That's why I say counterproductive.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/11/2008 1:15:38 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
So how's that "Pro Life Movement" worked for you in the last two decades?
I wouldn't know I don't keep tabs on them... I do know those who champion abortion support the murder of over 3000 unborn children daily...
quote:
The very definition of insanity - doing and saying the same things over and over that just run society in the absolute opposite direction.
People don't have abortions because of the "Pro Life Movement" and its issue... That's absurd and removes the blame from where it belongs. Society is already there, and sadly many Christians are right there with them...
quote:
That's why I stopped identifying myself with this "movement" years ago. It's short sighted and counter-productive.
I have never identified myself with this "movement"... It's about what is right in the sight of God...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/11/2008 1:22:27 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
I don't think there will be an effective advocacy tool other than prayer.
Abortion laws will not change until the hearts and minds of the people in this country are changed.
Laws are not designed to change hearts... They are there to convict... Praying for change while supporting unjust laws is hypocrisy and will not change things...
quote:
The antics of the pro-life movement have only turned the general population away and grounded abortion "rights" deeper in the minds of the average American. That's why I say counterproductive.
False... The pro-abortion movement has driven home the point that it's a right and in a society that holds their rights more dear than what is right and wrong in God's eyes it's an easy sell... The negative impact of the pro-life movement isn't even on the radar...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/11/2008 2:40:41 PM
|
|
|
csl7037
Posts: 1775
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
False... The pro-abortion movement has driven home the point that it's a right and in a society that holds their rights more dear than what is right and wrong in God's eyes it's an easy sell... The negative impact of the pro-life movement isn't even on the radar...
The ridiculous and misguided efforts of the "pro life movement" have only made their job easier. Keep doing what you're doing; it'll keep not working.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/11/2008 2:46:01 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
The ridiculous and misguided efforts of the "pro life movement" have only made their job easier.
Actually that would be the efforts of so-called Christian who support abortion... The failings of your prior movement notwithstanding...
quote:
Keep doing what you're doing; it'll keep not working.
Unlike yourself I have never been part of that "movement" so yours and their failures are not mine...
And the failure of those who murder their children are theirs and as well those who support their right to do so...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Abortion/God/Election - 10/11/2008 6:04:18 PM
|
|
|
csl7037
Posts: 1775
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
The ridiculous and misguided efforts of the "pro life movement" have only made their job easier.
Actually that would be the efforts of so-called Christian who support abortion... The failings of your prior movement notwithstanding...
quote:
Keep doing what you're doing; it'll keep not working.
Unlike yourself I have never been part of that "movement" so yours and their failures are not mine...
And the failure of those who murder their children are theirs and as well those who support their right to do so...
I truly have no idea what you're even talking about anymore. Nobody's supporting anyone's "right" to murder anyone but calling people murderers is exactly what I'm talking about being counterproductive.
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
| |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
