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The Fig Tree - 12/3/2008 2:22:24 AM
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NightJay0044
Posts: 45
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Hi I have a question about the fig tree.
Mathew 21:18-22:
It talks about the fig tree and Jesus cursing it and saying it can't grow it's leaves. I dont' understand this, so bear with me here.
I've looked up places that have said the fig tree is "Isreal".
So how does that have relations to having faith and not doubting. If the fig tree represents Isreal, this sounds kind of obvious but this is how I understand it, are we supposed to ask Isreal, which is a city.
This is a pondering passage. Thanks all..
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/3/2008 2:45:58 AM
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Bluethread
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I personally have a problem with turning the life of Yeshua(Jesus) into a series of analogies. Sometimes a fig tree is just a fig tree. It does not appear to be a parable, but a historical account. Now the fact that he would use "supernatural" powers would tend to threaten the principle of His being lower than the angels while incarnate that he might represent man and not give the adversary reason to make excuses. However, maybe that is the point of the lesson.
Adonai gave us dominion over nature, so maybe this is not what some would call a "supernatural" act at all, but the power we naturally have at our disposal and could use, if we were as in tune with Adonai as we should be. This kind of thing appears to border on mysticism, but it is in the Scriptures. Unless the linguists can find another definition for "spoke to" and/or "withered", that appears to be the point of the passage, from my prospective. After all we are able to move mountains now by "natural" means.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/3/2008 9:02:46 AM
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Eutychus
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I agree with Bluethread that the fig tree doesn't represent Israel. If there is an analogy there, it's that the redeemed should produce fruit fit for the Master.
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/3/2008 9:06:17 PM
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NightJay0044
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Okay, yeah i didn't get that, well the passage is about "The Power of Faith". If that helps.
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/3/2008 11:10:25 PM
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JStucki76
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I agree also. Many have made the analogy to Israel, with the implication that Israel will never again bear fruit, which is just simply untrue (and unscriptural). I'm with Bluethread. Why is it necessary for the fig tree to stand for something else?
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/4/2008 12:38:20 AM
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LCannon
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Well, think what just happened, the 'Triumphal entry', the clearing of the Temple, the Passion week. It was spring and the fig 'tree'(actually a shrub)was in fully leaf. Fully leafed out despite the season should have had fruit but, as the nation Israel, it was an illustration of all flash(show)but no substance(apostasy).
< Message edited by LCannon -- 12/4/2008 12:53:40 AM >
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/4/2008 1:01:56 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
Well, think what just happened, the 'Triumphal entry', the clearing of the Temple, the Passion week. It was spring and the fig 'tree'(actually a shrub)was in fully leaf. Fully leafed out despite the season should have had fruit but, as the nation Israel, it was an illustration of all flash(show)but no substance(apostasy).
Then maybe it represents "the church"?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/6/2008 7:45:16 PM
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Dancre
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What I believe is that Jesus was trying to give an example of faith, not so much destory Isreal. THe fig was there and to see it dead the next day would really nail His teaching on faith. It would be easier to SEE faith in action than just saying do it. Does that help?
I was Sunday School Teacher in my old church and I would use stuff to help teach the kids, a visual example. It helps to get the point across a lot easier. Jesus taught His disciples as if they were kids and it worked. I wouldn't get too technical with this, it's just an example Jesus used.
quote:
ORIGINAL: NightJay0044
Hi I have a question about the fig tree.
Mathew 21:18-22:
It talks about the fig tree and Jesus cursing it and saying it can't grow it's leaves. I dont' understand this, so bear with me here.
I've looked up places that have said the fig tree is "Isreal".
So how does that have relations to having faith and not doubting. If the fig tree represents Isreal, this sounds kind of obvious but this is how I understand it, are we supposed to ask Isreal, which is a city.
This is a pondering passage. Thanks all..
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/8/2008 11:07:45 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 2069
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NightJay0044
Hi I have a question about the fig tree.
Mathew 21:18-22:
It talks about the fig tree and Jesus cursing it and saying it can't grow it's leaves. I dont' understand this, so bear with me here.
I've looked up places that have said the fig tree is "Isreal".
So how does that have relations to having faith and not doubting. If the fig tree represents Isreal, this sounds kind of obvious but this is how I understand it, are we supposed to ask Isreal, which is a city.
This is a pondering passage. Thanks all..
I have just been pondering/meditating on the passage in Mark's gospel regarding the fig tree. (Mark 11:12-14) The fig tree in leaf is the 'appearance of life'. To me that can be anyone and it stands as a warning to me. I am in continual need of Jesus and His life in me. He is the fruit bearer. The branch (myself) cannot bear fruit of itself. I do not want to just have the appearance of life, my playing the part of a good little Christian. I need to be continually filled with His Spirit so that His life is in me and being lived out of me and overflowing to others (bearing fruit).
The leafy fig tree can be myself when I am not remaining in Him, the church, Israel or any other one who does not have the vital life of Jesus flowing in and through them at any moment. Any born again person can appear to be dead, just as the fig tree appeared to be alive.
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/9/2008 2:52:00 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NightJay0044
Hi I have a question about the fig tree.
Mathew 21:18-22:
It talks about the fig tree and Jesus cursing it and saying it can't grow it's leaves. I dont' understand this, so bear with me here.
I've looked up places that have said the fig tree is "Isreal".
So how does that have relations to having faith and not doubting. If the fig tree represents Isreal, this sounds kind of obvious but this is how I understand it, are we supposed to ask Isreal, which is a city.
This is a pondering passage. Thanks all..
The context in which the story occurs, and the parable of the tenants beginning in vs. 33, and the prophecy of Micah 6 and 7 suggest the fig tree is probably illustrative of the unfruitful branches of natural Israel at the time of Jesus's entry into Jerusalem.
Jesus's official entry into Jerusalem is the time of the coming of the son of the owner of the vineyard. The tenants of the vineyard have not produced the fruit of the harvest and have even killed all the owner's servants (the prophets), and now the owner of the vineyard has sent his Son.
The tenants of the Land (Lev. 25:23) will now be judged for their unfruitfulness and treachory against the owner's servants. And in keeping with the parable, they even kill the owner's son. Afterwhich, the vineyard is turned over to a people who will produce it's fruit (Matt. 21:41).
Here's a snippet from the passages in Micah which seem to prophesy this moment in time for Israel...
"1 What misery is mine!
I am like one who gathers summer fruit
at the gleaning of the vineyard;
there is no cluster of grapes to eat,
none of the early figs that I crave." (Micah 7:1)
Read the parable of the tenants (Matthew 21, Mark 12, Luke 20), and read Micah chapters 6 and 7 in their entirity and decide for yourself what the meaning of the fig tree is. And then be careful to also understand our personal responsibility to bring forth the fruit of the harvest as the people who are presently entrusted with that responsibility.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/9/2008 4:26:50 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1666
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
Here's a snippet from the passages in Micah which seem to prophesy this moment in time for Israel...
"1 What misery is mine!
I am like one who gathers summer fruit
at the gleaning of the vineyard;
there is no cluster of grapes to eat,
none of the early figs that I crave." (Micah 7:1)
Read the parable of the tenants (Matthew 21, Mark 12, Luke 20), and read Micah chapters 6 and 7 in their entirity and decide for yourself what the meaning of the fig tree is. And then be careful to also understand our personal responsibility to bring forth the fruit of the harvest as the people who are presently entrusted with that responsibility.
To say that Micah is prophesying the moment in time that is documented in Matthew 21 seems to me to be a interpreting the Scriptures with tunnel vision. Yes, there is a similarity between the times of Micah and those of Yeshus(Jesus), but this is a common theme throughout history. One can even look at the history of "the church" and see times when Micah 6&7 apply.
Mathew may have had this passage in mind when he constructed the historical account. Matthew's account often shows connections to familiar events and comments in the Tenach(old testiment). However, he generally appears to includes a quote or clear allusion to the passage when he does so. Also the fact that this event is recorded without comment, except the one rergarding faith.
In my opinion, not everything recorded in the Tenach(old testiment) is directly related to the incarnation of the Messiah or only to the hereditary Israel. Also, I am reluctant to accept every coincidental reference in the Apistolic Writings(new testiment) as the ultimate fulfillment of what the prophets said.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/10/2008 11:47:55 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
To say that Micah is prophesying the moment in time that is documented in Matthew 21 seems to me to be a interpreting the Scriptures with tunnel vision. Yes, there is a similarity between the times of Micah and those of Yeshus(Jesus), but this is a common theme throughout history. One can even look at the history of "the church" and see times when Micah 6&7 apply.
Mathew may have had this passage in mind when he constructed the historical account. Matthew's account often shows connections to familiar events and comments in the Tenach(old testiment). However, he generally appears to includes a quote or clear allusion to the passage when he does so. Also the fact that this event is recorded without comment, except the one rergarding faith.
In my opinion, not everything recorded in the Tenach(old testiment) is directly related to the incarnation of the Messiah or only to the hereditary Israel. Also, I am reluctant to accept every coincidental reference in the Apistolic Writings(new testiment) as the ultimate fulfillment of what the prophets said.
Well, like I said, decide for yourself.
It had been a while since I had read the passages in Micah 7 and I had forgotten the other compelling evidence in those passages that suggest Jesus's triumphal entry into Jerusalem is seen in Michah 7.
Here's the verses from Micah including the part about the disappointment of not finding any fruit:
1 What misery is mine!
I am like one who gathers summer fruit
at the gleaning of the vineyard;
there is no cluster of grapes to eat,
none of the early figs that I crave.
2 The godly have been swept from the land;
not one upright man remains.
All men lie in wait to shed blood;
each hunts his brother with a net.
3 Both hands are skilled in doing evil;
the ruler demands gifts,
the judge accepts bribes,
the powerful dictate what they desire—
they all conspire together.
4 The best of them is like a brier,
the most upright worse than a thorn hedge.
The day of your watchmen has come,
the day God visits you.
Now is the time of their confusion.
(Micah 7:1-4)
In the gospel accounts, Jesus approaches Jerusalem and weeps over it and says, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace... (Y)ou did not recognize the time of God's coming to you" (Luke 19:41, 44).
This is the day prophesied by all the prophets (watchmen) before him. The day of God's visitation is here. Jesus sees the showy leaves of the fig tree ("Hosanna. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord"--Mark 11:9). But when he goes to the Temple he finds it defiled by the money changers who have changed it 'into a den of thieves'. The fruit he should of expected to find is absent.
It is here in the story that Jesus approaches the fig tree to see if it has fruit, see's none, and curses the fig tree, and it withers and dies--a clear parallel of everything that has just occurred and which Jesus said will happen to them.
Then we have the parable of the Tenants and how the vineyard will be taken away from those who have not brought forth it's fruit and given to a people who will produce it's fruit. As Jesus prophesied, the time of Israel's confusion is coming when her enemies will "dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls" (Luke 19:44)
The account of Jesus's entry into Jerusalem parallels the Micah passage very well--fruitless Israel, the day of God's visitation prophesied by Israel's watchmen, and the prophecy of Israel's confusion. All of which is also seen in Jesus cursing the leafy, but fruitless fig tree, and the parable of the Tenants. It's too coincindental for me to think the Micah passages aren't speaking in some way of the day of Christ's entry into Jerusalem.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/11/2008 2:11:37 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
The account of Jesus's entry into Jerusalem parallels the Micah passage very well--fruitless Israel, the day of God's visitation prophesied by Israel's watchmen, and the prophecy of Israel's confusion. All of which is also seen in Jesus cursing the leafy, but fruitless fig tree, and the parable of the Tenants. It's too coincindental for me to think the Micah passages aren't speaking in some way of the day of Christ's entry into Jerusalem.
Yes , one can draw an interesting parallel. However, one could also make a parallel to the complicit church during the holocast. Micah was talking of the corruption of the people of his own time. I don't see anything in that passage that indicates that "the day" in verse 4 should be interpreted as "The Day", as if he were speaking of a specific day in time apart from the one in his own time.
I am not saying that there are no prophecies that directly apply to the incarnation of the Messiah. I am just saying that using the passage in Micah to justify interpreting the fig tree in Mt 21 as a specific accusation against Israel is a bit of a stretch.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/12/2008 1:19:51 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I am not saying that there are no prophecies that directly apply to the incarnation of the Messiah. I am just saying that using the passage in Micah to justify interpreting the fig tree in Mt 21 as a specific accusation against Israel is a bit of a stretch.
It's your choice. And that's okay, because the parable of the Tenants immediately following the events of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem does that for us. Even the Pharisees knew he was talking about them after they heard the parable.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/12/2008 4:48:39 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I am not saying that there are no prophecies that directly apply to the incarnation of the Messiah. I am just saying that using the passage in Micah to justify interpreting the fig tree in Mt 21 as a specific accusation against Israel is a bit of a stretch.
It's your choice. And that's okay, because the parable of the Tenants immediately following the events of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem does that for us. Even the Pharisees knew he was talking about them after they heard the parable.
Not necessarily, as I said before the two need not be connected in this way. Matthew does not make that connection and Yeshua(Jesus) uses the fig tree for a lesson on faith. How one interprets the parable of the tenants is for another thread.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/13/2008 12:38:54 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 934
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I am not saying that there are no prophecies that directly apply to the incarnation of the Messiah. I am just saying that using the passage in Micah to justify interpreting the fig tree in Mt 21 as a specific accusation against Israel is a bit of a stretch.
It's your choice. And that's okay, because the parable of the Tenants immediately following the events of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem does that for us. Even the Pharisees knew he was talking about them after they heard the parable.
Not necessarily, as I said before the two need not be connected in this way. Matthew does not make that connection and Yeshua(Jesus) uses the fig tree for a lesson on faith. How one interprets the parable of the tenants is for another thread.
Well, it's definately true Jesus is giving us a clear teaching about accomplishing the impossible through faith in the story. I've always understood this as Jesus seizing the illustration of the fig tree as an opportunity to teach us about faith. And until I can make a direct connection between the two (unfruitful Israel being cursed, and doing the impossible through faith) I will continue to think they are unrelated. But there is always more to learn in the scriptures. I'm open.
So I would say to NightJay that it seems more understandable to separate the lesson of the withered fig tree, and the lesson of doing the impossible through faith. If there is a connection between the two, and we're not devoted to an agenda or doctrine that conflicts with that connection, then the Lord may very well reveal it to us someday.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: The Fig Tree - 12/13/2008 1:54:17 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I am not saying that there are no prophecies that directly apply to the incarnation of the Messiah. I am just saying that using the passage in Micah to justify interpreting the fig tree in Mt 21 as a specific accusation against Israel is a bit of a stretch.
It's your choice. And that's okay, because the parable of the Tenants immediately following the events of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem does that for us. Even the Pharisees knew he was talking about them after they heard the parable.
Not necessarily, as I said before the two need not be connected in this way. Matthew does not make that connection and Yeshua(Jesus) uses the fig tree for a lesson on faith. How one interprets the parable of the tenants is for another thread.
Well, it's definately true Jesus is giving us a clear teaching about accomplishing the impossible through faith in the story. I've always understood this as Jesus seizing the illustration of the fig tree as an opportunity to teach us about faith. And until I can make a direct connection between the two (unfruitful Israel being cursed, and doing the impossible through faith) I will continue to think they are unrelated. But there is always more to learn in the scriptures. I'm open.
So I would say to NightJay that it seems more understandable to separate the lesson of the withered fig tree, and the lesson of doing the impossible through faith. If there is a connection between the two, and we're not devoted to an agenda or doctrine that conflicts with that connection, then the Lord may very well reveal it to us someday.
Though we disagree on which context is most closely connected to the passage, I commend you for discussing it in an agreeable fashion. Points made, let the hearer decide.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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