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The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/29/2008 7:36:07 AM
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SvetoslavAng
Posts: 2
Joined: 11/29/2008
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Hello all, I wanted to ask you a question. For a while i was searching the internet for a free downloadable version of the Holy Bible and not surprisingly, I found a few dozen web sites that allowed me to save it on my hard drive in a word format. Now the thing that I want to ask of you is whether this is right or wrong? I can change the contents of this word file as I please and subsequently create my own version of the Holy Bible. If I then upload it and start spreading this false version to other people, unaware of these changes, they might get a really wrong idea about the nature of its contents. Now I know that the Bible is supposed to be free and everyone who wishes to read it should be able to do it free of charge, but the Internet is changing this concept way too much. So what do you think of all this ? Should free distribution of the Bible over the Internet continue, or should someone put a stop to this?
EDIT: Forgot to post the one of the links I mentioned: http://printkjv.ifbweb.com/#downloads
Here it is the Holy Bible in text format.
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/29/2008 10:07:48 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5771
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SvetoslavAng
Hello all, I wanted to ask you a question. For a while i was searching the internet for a free downloadable version of the Holy Bible and not surprisingly, I found a few dozen web sites that allowed me to save it on my hard drive in a word format. Now the thing that I want to ask of you is whether this is right or wrong? I can change the contents of this word file as I please and subsequently create my own version of the Holy Bible. If I then upload it and start spreading this false version to other people, unaware of these changes, they might get a really wrong idea about the nature of its contents.
If you did what your are referrencing, then you would join a very large crowd of folks that change Scripture all the time.
You would just be another in a long and continuing line of false teachers.
Please don't.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/29/2008 2:01:30 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1224
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
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Well, as RC says that's beengoing on forever and the pure Word of God has survived to this day. The one 'problem' with one's personal 'creative interpretations' is when they put worth errors or misconceptions that lead to continued arrogance and unbelief in Christ Jesus' obedience. When(if)one knows or realizes he's promoting a lessor gospel regardless of the medium, Internet, books or personal evangelism, the promoter needs to confess and mend his ways. Download E-sword and you can cut/paste with impunity
< Message edited by LCannon -- 11/29/2008 3:09:01 PM >
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/29/2008 2:15:57 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3609
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SvetoslavAng
Hello all, I wanted to ask you a question. For a while i was searching the internet for a free downloadable version of the Holy Bible and not surprisingly, I found a few dozen web sites that allowed me to save it on my hard drive in a word format. Now the thing that I want to ask of you is whether this is right or wrong? I can change the contents of this word file as I please and subsequently create my own version of the Holy Bible. If I then upload it and start spreading this false version to other people, unaware of these changes, they might get a really wrong idea about the nature of its contents. Now I know that the Bible is supposed to be free and everyone who wishes to read it should be able to do it free of charge, but the Internet is changing this concept way too much. So what do you think of all this ? Should free distribution of the Bible over the Internet continue, or should someone put a stop to this?
EDIT: Forgot to post the one of the links I mentioned: http://printkjv.ifbweb.com/#downloads
Here it is the Holy Bible in text format.
As others have pointed out, this has been done long before the Internet ever existed. It may be easier for the average person to modify the biblical text and distribute it now days, but it has been a problem that has existed long before there was an internet. We have examples of this being done all the way back to the first few centuries of the church.
This is a good reason why one should never rely on a single source, and why obtaining the text from a reputable source is preferable. Also studying God's word will help you to quickly identify emendations to God's word when you do see them; the more familiar you are with God's word, the easier it is to spot a fake.
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/29/2008 3:01:02 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
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This is what the variuos translations are, changes in the text to make them more understandable. Most of the time this is done by committee. I am not sure that is an advantage. Also, there are now new versions coming out that support a particular agenda(the feminist version,the african american version, . . .).
As we study the Scriptures we often find differences in the variuos translations we use. A those times we go to a concordance, greek interliniar, and/or a kumash(hebrew version) to try to determine what the original word was. We have found some rather disturbing errors even in some of the more reliable translations, though they are relatively rare.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/29/2008 3:36:33 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3609
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
This is what the variuos translations are, changes in the text to make them more understandable. Most of the time this is done by committee. I am not sure that is an advantage. Also, there are now new versions coming out that support a particular agenda(the feminist version,the african american version, . . .).
As we study the Scriptures we often find differences in the variuos translations we use. A those times we go to a concordance, greek interliniar, and/or a kumash(hebrew version) to try to determine what the original word was. We have found some rather disturbing errors even in some of the more reliable translations, though they are relatively rare.
I would strongly discourage anyone from concluding that they have found an error in a translation simply by using and concordance and lexicon. These tools are extremely limited and can not replace the hard work required to truly interpret scriptures. For example, things like idiomatic expressions are rarely conveyed in the definitions given in a Lexicon, but understanding idiomatic usage of words is absolutely important for proper translation. For example, if I were to say in Hebrew, "you want me to do this standing on one leg?", I really mean that "you have given me a ridiculously short time in which to complete the task" Looking up the individual words in a Lexicon will never explain the proper translation of this phrase, but reading the the stories in the Mishnah about Rabi Hillel will. Additionally, in Hebrew every verb root can be constructed in seven different forms and each form can significantly affect the meaning of the word; however, in the lexicons at the back of a concordance no differentiation is given by construction, and in every Lexicon all verb roots are listed in a single entry. Without looking at the text to determine which construction was used, a proper translation is impossible.
Some of the absolute worst theology I have ever seen resulted from word studies done by people who have never studied the original languages, but believe they have discovered errors that all of the biblical linguistic scholars have missed by using an exhaustive concordance and lexicon.
Note: I do believe that exhaustive concordances and Lexicons are great tools to have and use, but it is critically important that people understand the limits of those tools and don't try and use them for things for which they were never intended. The absolute best way for a bible student who has not studied the original languages to check the accuarcy of a verse is to compare the same verse among several different respected English translations. When all of the versions agree, there is seldom any reason to doubt the translation. When there is disagreement, consult a commentary written by scholars who have studied the original languages and hear their arguments supporting or rejecting a particular translation. However, NEVER reject a translation based on a "discovery" made by using only a concordance.
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/30/2008 4:53:49 AM
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SvetoslavAng
Posts: 2
Joined: 11/29/2008
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First of all I want to thank you for the replies. I am aware that the Holy Bible underwent a few significant changes during the centuries and because of these changes we now wonder how to interpret certain passages.
Problem is, if everyone can change the holy text for themselves, and as mentioned above, we have Feminist Bible, African American Bible and so on, in a few decades we may see a "Holy Bible" for every social group. The Holy Qur'An has to be studied in its original form, while the Holy Bible can be translated and modified to meet different demands. With all this said, I am wondering is if the Holy Bible will continue to be this wonderful piece of literature, or change for worse thanks to the Internet and the market's desire to satisfy every customer need.
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/30/2008 9:49:42 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 3609
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SvetoslavAng
First of all I want to thank you for the replies. I am aware that the Holy Bible underwent a few significant changes during the centuries and because of these changes we now wonder how to interpret certain passages.
Problem is, if everyone can change the holy text for themselves, and as mentioned above, we have , in a few decades we may see a "Holy Bible" for every social group. The Holy Qur'An has to be studied in its original form, while the Holy Bible can be translated and modified to meet different demands. With all this said, I am wondering is if the Holy Bible will continue to be this wonderful piece of literature, or change for worse thanks to the Internet and the market's desire to satisfy every customer need.
Actually, that is a mischaracterization of our bible; it has not undergone any significant changes over the centuries. While we know that people have tried to change the text over the centuries, we can compare those changed manuscripts to others that reflect the original texts. We also can read about the social and cultural issues that preceded these emendations in the writings of the early church and understand the motivation for these changes. Over the last 150 years we have found most of our very oldest manuscripts (from both the Old and New Testament) and the very oldest manuscripts have demonstrated the accuracy to which the biblical manuscripts have been transmitted over the centuries. Most changes are very minor. Because conservative biblical scholars believe that accurately transmitting the biblical text is critically important they always check the most reliable manuscript evidence before making a new translation. Many of the (minor) changes in newer versions of the bible are a reflection of discoveries made from the very oldest texts and the corrections being made are to better align them with the evidence we have from the very oldest and most original manuscripts. Versions like the "Feminist Bible, African American Bible and so on" are not generally recognized as valid translations because it is recognized that they have been emended based on an agenda, and not based on biblical scholarship.
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/30/2008 12:56:14 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 68
Joined: 1/6/2008
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You're talking about 2 separate things here: 1. Downloading the bible and 2. changing the bible in order to promote your own interpretations or misinterpretations and /or false doctrine.
It is not wrong to offer free downloads of bible text. People can choose which version of the bible they want to download. It is a good thing to get the words of God into the hands of as many people as possible. The Lord's great commission to all His disciples is to spread the good news of His love and salvation into all the world to every creature. (Mark 16:15) Offering free downloads of the bible is one of the ways this can be accomplished.
However it is wrong to change the text of the bible in such a way that you are preaching false doctrine and misinterpretations of bible scripture. But I would think that most sincere Christians would not do this. They would be afraid to do it for fear of losing the blessing of God in their lives.
But, no, I don't believe we should forbid free downloads of the scriptures just because some people might take it as an oppurtunity to undermine people's faith in the bible by changing what it says and misinterpreting it. I feel we should trust in the Lord and believe that He is in control of things and that He won't allow anything negative to happen that won't eventually accomplish His perfect will.
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/30/2008 2:05:24 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
This is what the variuos translations are, changes in the text to make them more understandable. Most of the time this is done by committee. I am not sure that is an advantage. Also, there are now new versions coming out that support a particular agenda(the feminist version,the african american version, . . .).
As we study the Scriptures we often find differences in the variuos translations we use. A those times we go to a concordance, greek interliniar, and/or a kumash(hebrew version) to try to determine what the original word was. We have found some rather disturbing errors even in some of the more reliable translations, though they are relatively rare.
I would strongly discourage anyone from concluding that they have found an error in a translation simply by using and concordance and lexicon. Note: I do believe that exhaustive concordances and Lexicons are great tools to have and use, but it is critically important that people understand the limits of those tools and don't try and use them for things for which they were never intended. The absolute best way for a bible student who has not studied the original languages to check the accuarcy of a verse is to compare the same verse among several different respected English translations. When all of the versions agree, there is seldom any reason to doubt the translation. When there is disagreement, consult a commentary written by scholars who have studied the original languages and hear their arguments supporting or rejecting a particular translation. However, NEVER reject a translation based on a "discovery" made by using only a concordance.
I did not say we us just a concordance and lexicon, nor did I say we ignore context or other translations. Last time I checked the greek interliniar and kumash contained translations different from the translations generally used. I am sorry, if I don't always include an explanation that covers every possible way in which what I say can be misunderstood. That said, your argument sounds very similar to the "only priests can understand the Scriptures" argument of the authoritarian era of the catholic church. Are you trying to discourage all discussion of the Scriptures by those who do not have an extensive knowledge of greek and hebrew grammar, or are you just trying to establish your credentials as an authority in these matters. If it is the latter, you might want to try giving advise regarding what is actually said, rather than laying down laws to counter the worst possible misunderstanding.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 11/30/2008 4:19:50 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3609
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I did not say we us just a concordance and lexicon, nor did I say we ignore context or other translations. Last time I checked the greek interliniar and kumash contained translations different from the translations generally used.
This is a good example of the kinds of mistakes that can be made when you try and use tools like an interlinear for purposes that it was never intended. Interlinears are used to aid the Greek or Hebrew student in understanding the Greek and/or Hebrew text. They sound differently because the follow the word order of the the original language, but they rarely offer a "different" translation. For example, the Hebrew phrase 'יש לה ספר (yesh lah sepher)' in an interlinear might read 'there [is] to her a book' or simply 'there to her a book', but an English translation would read "she has a book". The interlinear reads differently because the goal is to aid the Hebrew student in understanding the structure of the Hebrew language, but it means the same thing as conveyed in the English translation. To conclude that the translation brought forth a "new" or "different" interpretation would be entirely incorrect.
quote:
I am sorry, if I don't always include an explanation that covers every possible way in which what I say can be misunderstood. That said, your argument sounds very similar to the "only priests can understand the Scriptures" argument of the authoritarian era of the catholic church. Are you trying to discourage all discussion of the Scriptures by those who do not have an extensive knowledge of greek and hebrew grammar, or are you just trying to establish your credentials as an authority in these matters. If it is the latter, you might want to try giving advise regarding what is actually said, rather than laying down laws to counter the worst possible misunderstanding.
The Catholic church discouraged the use of scriptures by the laity in any fashion at all; they did not permit translations of the Scriptures into the common tongue of the people. Protestants encourage every member to read and study the bible, and the English translations we have today are a result of that ideology. I would never discourage anyone from studying the bible regardless of their training in the biblical languages. However, I would encourage people very strongly to recognize the limits of their knowledge and abilities and not make claims about translation errors for which they are unqualified to asses. In other words, TRUST the English versions of the bible to be accurate unless you have studied the original languages enough to make a reasonable judgment about the translation of a passage, or unless you have relied on the opinion of someone else who has studied the original languages enough to fairly evaluate the translation of a particular passage. Trying to offer a "better" translation using a lexicon and an interlinear is extremely error prone. It would be no different than someone who knows no French trying to correct the translation of war and piece made by a native speaking Frenchmen using only an English/French dictionary.
Basically what I am saying is that if you want to check the accuracy of the translations yourself and offer alternate translations to others yourself then LEARN THE LANGUAGE! If you are not inclined to do that then trust the opinions of those who have! Doing anything else is like trying to navigate a mine field while blindfolded.
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 12/1/2008 4:41:53 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1666
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Basically what I am saying is that if you want to check the accuracy of the translations yourself and offer alternate translations to others yourself then LEARN THE LANGUAGE! If you are not inclined to do that then trust the opinions of those who have! Doing anything else is like trying to navigate a mine field while blindfolded.
There appear to be basically two types of people who interpret the Scriptures in this forum. There are those who make arguments based on word studies and those who believe that the Spirit of Adonai guides them to the proper interpretation without regard to the words used in whatever language. I have not seen a lot of linguistic justifications from people who use either of these methods. I have seen one case in which you have applied this standard to another. That is an improvement as far as consistancy is concerned. I hope to see it more often, if you insist on your statement above as an article of faith.
If one is to trust the english translations, how is one to decide between those translations when there is a difference of interpretation?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 12/1/2008 6:32:50 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3609
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Basically what I am saying is that if you want to check the accuracy of the translations yourself and offer alternate translations to others yourself then LEARN THE LANGUAGE! If you are not inclined to do that then trust the opinions of those who have! Doing anything else is like trying to navigate a mine field while blindfolded.
There appear to be basically two types of people who interpret the Scriptures in this forum. There are those who make arguments based on word studies and those who believe that the Spirit of Adonai guides them to the proper interpretation without regard to the words used in whatever language. I have not seen a lot of linguistic justifications from people who use either of these methods. I have seen one case in which you have applied this standard to another. That is an improvement as far as consistancy is concerned. I hope to see it more often, if you insist on your statement above as an article of faith.
I don't see this as an article of faith, but just as common sense. And I also see these two "methods" of study presented by some on these boards, but I don't think either of these extremes for biblical interpretation you mentioned will ever yield good results (I think you would agree). Some of the Ivy league professors of theology have demonstrated that an academic scholarly approach to biblical studies apart from a relationship with God fails miserably, and many Christian churches have demonstrated that ignoring academic scholarly principles of study will fail almost equally as miserably; I believe that the Holy Spirit will always guide us as we study God's word if we allow him to do so, but he doesn't "ZAP" us with supernatural knowledge so that we don't have to do the hard work of study. Looking either at academic study without the Spirit's guidance, or looking to the Spirit to help us "cheat" in order to avoid the hard work of bible study is going to be a disaster. I believe strongly that good bible study requires a balance of both allowing the spirit to speak and pulling up our sleeves and putting in the required hard work; it's kind of like the balance between Paul's message of "salvation by grace alone" and Jame's message of "our faith being demonstrated by our works."
quote:
If one is to trust the English translations, how is one to decide between those translations when there is a difference of interpretation?
The best way for the non biblical language student to assess differences between translations is by looking for explanations from those who have training in the biblical languages. A good place to begin is the footnotes and/or translation notes for a particular passage. Commentaries, especially by those who have worked on one of the translation committees, would be another great source of information. Additionally, many theological dictionaries will provide information about special translation considerations of Greek and Hebrew words in relation to specific verses in the bible. One set I have found particularly useful is the New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis; it is a 5 volume set that is readily accessible to those who have not studied Hebrew. There are a couple of similar sets for both the OT and the NT. And Last, one of the great things about having such a variety of good English versions of the bible is that the differences we encounter between these versions can be a very quick way to identify passages that are difficult to translate and warrant further study. There are many good tools to aid in bible study, but it is important that we understand the limits of each tool and refrain from pressing them to do things they were never intended to do.
As a beginning (and struggling) Greek student, even thought I can read a little bit of Greek, I know that if I see a "discrepancy" in how a verse is translated that the mistake is most likely my own. I would look to people like Bruce, Gruedem, Mounce, etc... to find an explanation for differences in a translation. Any opinion I formed would be based entirely on the persuasiveness of their argument rather than my very limited understanding of the Greek. As an advanced Hebrew student, I will give myself a little more room to form an opinion, but I still almost always look at the arguments presented for different translations before drawing my own conclusion, and if every translation disagrees with my interpretation, I typically begin by assuming my interpretation must be wrong until I am able to find substantial evidence to support my conclusion.
P.S. I think you will find in the history of these forums that I have consistently upheld this standard whether I agree or disagree with the position another poster is making. I really do try hard to apply the same standards to everyone (including myself). 
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RE: The Holy Bible and the Internet - 12/3/2008 12:14:16 PM
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Jlynne
Posts: 3
Joined: 3/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SvetoslavAng
Hello all, I wanted to ask you a question. For a while i was searching the internet for a free downloadable version of the Holy Bible and not surprisingly, I found a few dozen web sites that allowed me to save it on my hard drive in a word format. Now the thing that I want to ask of you is whether this is right or wrong? I can change the contents of this word file as I please and subsequently create my own version of the Holy Bible. If I then upload it and start spreading this false version to other people, unaware of these changes, they might get a really wrong idea about the nature of its contents. Now I know that the Bible is supposed to be free and everyone who wishes to read it should be able to do it free of charge, but the Internet is changing this concept way too much. So what do you think of all this ? Should free distribution of the Bible over the Internet continue, or should someone put a stop to this?
EDIT: Forgot to post the one of the links I mentioned: http://printkjv.ifbweb.com/#downloads
Here it is the Holy Bible in text format.
Well the only thing that I can say about changing the words, adding words, taking words out of the bible is this,
Revelation 22:18, 19 And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. And if anyone one removes any of the words from this book of prophecy, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.
I honestly believe that God was talking about the WHOLE bible not just Revelation. So before you think about changing the words that have been written by those who have been chosen by our Lord God, I urge you to think twice and turn away QUICKLY.
In God's Hands Now,
Jlynne
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