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The Two Resurrections - 11/30/2008 11:06:15 AM
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HaEmethKawthawb
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Hello and Shalom~
I'm new to your forum but am seeking input from other Believers regarding the appearance of a discrepancy in Scripture with regard to "the" resurrection. Needless to say, I do NOT believer there are any discrepancies; there are only, misinterpretations. To the point then~
1 Thess 4:16 talks about the "dead in CHRIST" rising first at His appearance. However, Revelation 20:5 calls the resurrection which happens before the 1,000 millenium with Christ, the FIRST resurrection. Also, as we know, Christ DID resurrect from the dead and brought with Him all those who had been asleep.
So, I'm wondering, what are your thoughts on this? Is it possible that the Resurrection of our CHRIST actually heralded the FIRST resurrection, and the 1,000 years after WAS the millenium reign? Are we missing something here?
Shalom to all~
Karen
Forgive me if this is large, but I can't see very well. LARGE answers would be nice. THANK you.
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/6/2008 1:10:04 AM
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walterquez
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My understanding is that the first resurrection refers to Baptism, which has been ongoing since the founding of the Church. For obvious reasons, only those who become Christians participate in this event. And the second resurrection refers to the resurrection that is common to all.
There is a blessing for those who have partaken of the first resurrection. because death has no power. The second resurrection is for all, because the Holy Scripture states all will rise in the end. But only those who participated in the first resurrection will death have no power. The others will rise, but without a Savior, separated from God for eternity.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/6/2008 12:34:43 PM
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colliefan
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We in the West see things progressively and linearly. It could be the writers of scripture interreted the two as one event. Imagine that one is viewing a mountain from a distance; miles away it seems to be a single mountain; but as one moves closer one sees there is another mountain directly behind the first mountain.
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/6/2008 8:40:34 PM
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Thom01
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Sorry for the FONT size. I don't know how to make it larger.
Revelation 20: 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
This clearly shows that believers, all the way through the "Great Tribulation" period are included in the 1st resurrection, and will live and reign with Christ a thousand years.
At the END of the thousand years is the 2ND RESURRECTION. It does not specifically say so, but is implied due to the fact the reason for this resurrection results in the 2nd DEATH, and is for people who have died to stand at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT where those who wish to be judged by their works, will be judged.
Present there are the "books" of their works, out of which they will be judged, and another "little book" which is called the "Book of Life"
Rev. 20: 15 "And WHOSOEVER was NOT FOUND WRITTEN in the "Book of Life" was cast into the lake of fire. (This is the SECOND DEATH)
The key is, their names are NOT found written in the "Book of Life" because they rejected Jesus as their saviour, and were NOT what the Bible calls OVERCOMERS. Their names were there at one time but were ERASED OUT.
Those who have NEVER heard of Jesus are STILL WRITTEN in the Book of Life. Little babies, severely mentally retarded folks, anyone who has NEVER heard the name of Jesus and thus were never in a position to either accept or reject him will still have their names written there yet they are NOT OVERCOMERS because they never put their FAITH in Jesus. They have not appeared at the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST where all BELIEVERS have appeared after the RAPTURE and before the thousand year reign with Christ.
Revelation 3:5 says, "He that OVERCOMES, the same shall be clothed in white rainment and I WILL NOT ERASE OUT his name out of the Book of Life . . ."
The only thing that keeps a person from being cast into the lake of fire is their NAME is still written in the Book of life.
A name cannot be ERASED OUT unless it was there in the first place; and it will NOT be ERASED OUT if that person becomes an OVERCOMER.
WHO is an "OVERCOMER"???? I John 5: 5 explains " "Who is he that OVERCOMES the world, but he that BELIEVES that JESUS is the Son of God." (the word "BELIEVES" is the same as the word FAITH)
The names written in the Book of Life are actually the list of BENEFICIARIES to the LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ was "slain from the foundation of the world" for ALL MANKIND. I John 2:2 "For he is the "propitiation" (mercy seat) for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD"
(Romans 8:29) "For whom he did foreknow, he also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many bretheren.
(Eph. 1:5) Having PREDESTINATED us unto the ADOPTION of children by Jesus Christ to himself . . ."
He PREDESTINATED all of us by putting all of our names in the Book of Life. The list of names is so numerous it makes a book.
The NEW TESTAMENT is the LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT of the Lord Jesus Christ. He came into this world and lived a PERFECT life, under the LAW, from birth til his death on the cross and he ALONE "EARNED" eternal life. Only a PERFECT person can be joined unto a PERFECT GOD. God's glory is his PERFECTION and holiness. We are IMPERFECT and could NEVER be joined or reconciled unto God because to take something "imperfect" and join it to something "perfect" would make the "perfect" "imperfect". We were without hope in this world until Jesus Christ came. He was born PERFECT and was tempted in all manner like as we are yet did not SIN (commit an "imperfect" act). For ALL (of us) have SINNED (missed the mark of being perfect) and come short of the glory of God. (the glory of God is that he is PERFECT). He said "you be PERFECT for I am PERFECT.
God FORKNEW mankind would "miss the mark" (sin) and he made a plan BEFORE he ever created man that would PREDESTINE every person to be conformed to the image of his PERFECT SON yet give them FREE CHOICE as to whether or not they wanted to do that. He put EVERYBODY'S name in the list of benificiaries of the LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT of his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, which PRESDESTINATED them to INHERIT eternal life IF THEY WOULD ACCEPT THEIR INHERITANCE.
Just because our names are written in the list of beneficiaries to an inheritance does NOT mean we have to accept our inheritance. It's our FREE CHOICE to accept or reject our inheritance of eternal life. Jesus' Last Will and Testament was the PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE to all who would accept his taking their punishment in hell for them. He proved, prior to his death on the cross, that he was the Son of God by going about doing good, healing the sick, RAISING THE DEAD, and casting out devils. He then offered himself up as a sacrifice on the cross of calvary proving no sickness or disease could kill him and he loved EVERYONE, even those who crucified him. He was raised from the dead the 3rd day PROVING he had lived a PERFECT life as God had promised ANYONE who lived a PERFECT LIFE, acccording to the law, he would not allow their FLESHLY body to see "corruption" (decomposition, which begins the 4th day after death) but would give the ETERNAL LIFE. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the ONLY PERSON to ever live a PERFECT LIFE, and WHOSOEVER will accept that BY FAITH, he will come into their heart, give them ETERNAL LIFE, and abide with them FOREVER.
Those who do accept their inheritance by confessing they are "imperfect" and ask Jesus to come into their heart and save them will be counted OVERCOMERS and will take part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION upon which the second death has NO POWER. They will stand before the JUDGEMENT SEAT OF CHRIST to receive their rewards, but will NOT be cast into hell.
Those who do not accept their inheritance and refuse to confess they are "imperfect" and ask Jesus to come into their heart, will not be counted as OVERCOMERS and will have their names ERASED OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE and stand alone before almighty God at the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT at the end of the thousand year reign with Christ, and WHOSOEVER is not found written int the BOOK OF LIFE will be cast into the Lake of Fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.
Those who die before being able to hear of Jesus Christ or understand they need to accept him as their saviour will NOT appear before the Judgement Seat of Christ with other believers because they never had and opportunity to believe him but they will appear at the Great White Throne Judgement and will enter into life because there names are still written in the Book of Life because they never rejected Jesus yet they are NOT considered OVERCOMERS but will be among those entering into the next life.
I pray God this has been helpful in explaining the two resurrections.
< Message edited by Thom01 -- 12/6/2008 8:49:57 PM >
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/7/2008 9:39:38 AM
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psende
Posts: 89
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I guess I see the 1st resurrection as as happening in two stages; one immediatly following the other. When Paul speaks of the "the dead in Christ," as rising first, he follows with, "then we who are alive . . . shall be caught up together with them."
At that time, as I understand it, the thousand year Earthly reign of Christ, as in Revelation 20, begins.
In my opinion, the folks that "came out of the tombs" at Jesus' death, were revitalized like Lazarus had been, and would not be considered "resurrected." If, however, they did receive their incorruptable bodies at that time, they would be included with the "dead in Christ," of I Thess.
So to answer your question: No, I don't think Christ's resurrection is considered the First Resurrection of Revelation 20, and I believe the 1000 year reign is yet to come.
_____________________________
"This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent." John 6:29
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/8/2008 5:29:08 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1666
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
My understanding is that the first resurrection refers to Baptism, which has been ongoing since the founding of the Church. For obvious reasons, only those who become Christians participate in this event. And the second resurrection refers to the resurrection that is common to all.
There is a blessing for those who have partaken of the first resurrection. because death has no power. The second resurrection is for all, because the Holy Scripture states all will rise in the end. But only those who participated in the first resurrection will death have no power. The others will rise, but without a Savior, separated from God for eternity.
The problem with this theory is that it is tantimount to salvation by works. Baptism, known as the mikvah first recorded in HaTorah(the pentetuch) is a representation of the actual cleansing that comes by faith in the promise. Therefore, if one wishes to see "baptism" as the first reaurrection, it would have to be that which baptism represents, that is the ressurection of HaMeshiach(the Messiah) following Pesach(passover).
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/8/2008 5:37:49 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
We in the West see things progressively and linearly. It could be the writers of scripture interreted the two as one event. Imagine that one is viewing a mountain from a distance; miles away it seems to be a single mountain; but as one moves closer one sees there is another mountain directly behind the first mountain.
This is nice imagery. However, it has often been used by dispensationalist to justify their view that the prophets said nothing that is applicable to this "age", that is the time they place between the mountains. Now, if one were to shift the veiw of the prophets to Adonai's prospective as in a topographical map, where one sees all of the terrain but focuses on the high points, I would accept this analogy. Some of the terrain may be obscured by clouds in some isolated instinces(passages).
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/8/2008 7:12:36 PM
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walterquez
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Dear Bluethread, it is what has been taught by the Church for centuries.
But I can give you another example, the first resurrection refers to when one is born-again.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/8/2008 7:16:49 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
Dear Bluethread, it is what has been taught by the Church for centuries.
But I can give you another example, the first resurrection refers to when one is born-again.
So. are you saying that one is not "born again" until one is baptized or does it occur at the moment of the imparting of faith by grace?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/8/2008 7:50:03 PM
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walterquez
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I said when one is born-again, this is the first resurrection. Anything else is off topic.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/9/2008 8:45:19 AM
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ta_mosquito
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I said when one is born-again, this is the first resurrection. Anything else is off topic.
In your first post in this thread, you said the first resurrection is baptism. Now you say it's when one is born again. It's on topic for bluethread to ask for clarification. If the thread continues in the "is baptism being born again" vein for a while, then it'll be off topic.
Thanks!
Tricia
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/9/2008 9:07:40 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HaEmethKawthawb
1 Thess 4:16 talks about the "dead in CHRIST" rising first at His appearance. However, Revelation 20:5 calls the resurrection which happens before the 1,000 millenium with Christ, the FIRST resurrection. Also, as we know, Christ DID resurrect from the dead and brought with Him all those who had been asleep.
So, I'm wondering, what are your thoughts on this? Is it possible that the Resurrection of our CHRIST actually heralded the FIRST resurrection, and the 1,000 years after WAS the millenium reign? Are we missing something here? The first resurrection is the resurrection of the rightous. It is what the Thessolonian passage refers to.
The SECOND resurrection is listed in Rev. 20.12-13: And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
This is the resurrection of the unredeemed.
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/9/2008 6:18:54 PM
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walterquez
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Someone who is baptized is born again. I don't think there was a problem with what I said. Or at least, it was not my intention to discuss this particular topic. I think the scripture explains that we are buried with Him and then are risen in Christ when one is baptized.
quote:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. quote:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Either way, for simplicity sake I will say "born-again". How or when this happens is another topic. The point was that when one becomes a Christian (oops, I changed it again  ), this is the first resurrection. After all, this is what born-again really is, a resurrection, the first resurrection.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/11/2008 7:45:40 AM
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DaveW
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Walt: What the OP was questioning was the use of the term "first resurrection" in Rev. 20. If he had read a bit further he would have seen the 2nd resurrection. John was not refering to Paul's usage you quoted.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/11/2008 9:46:31 AM
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walterquez
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Why do you think John is not referring to the same thing? There is nothing there that contradicts it.
We agree that all mankind experienced the first death, because of sin.
But those who are born-again experience the first resurrection from the first death. And those who remain dead from the first death, will not see a resurrection until the end when all, believers and non-believers, will rise from the dead. But this second resurrection is not the same as the first one, when one is born-again in Christ, which death has no power.
1st death - When Adam and Eve sinned
1st resurrection - when one is born-again
2nd resurrection - this is where all will rise physically from the dead
2nd death - this is for those who did not experience the 1st resurrection, because they have rejected Christ.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: The Two Resurrections - 12/12/2008 6:51:52 AM
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DaveW
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Context my friend.
John specifically calls THIS the first resurrection:
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Please note that this resurrection was NOT for everyone. "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed." He then goes on to describe the 2nd resurrection:
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
THEN he gives us the term "second death:"
Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
In this context the distinction between first and second resurrections is clear: first is for the rightous dead and happens before the millenial messianic kingdom and the second is for the unredeemed dead and happens after the millenium.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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