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Unschooling - 11/5/2008 9:00:09 PM
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Consecrated2God
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This is a spin-off of another thread, so it doesn't take it off topic.
What do you think about unschooling? How would you define it? Is this something you do, or not? Do you think it gives children the education they need?
How is unschooling different from relaxed schooling?
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RE: Unschooling - 11/5/2008 9:01:47 PM
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stellaluna
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From the definition you gave in the other thread, I think I wouldn't have a college degree right now if that's how my education had been handled. I'm anxious to see comments.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 1:42:44 AM
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cindybode
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OK, Lisa, I'll jump in. Since I have graduated 3 kids with this method, with 2 more to go, I feel qualified to offer an opinion. If I weren't qualified, I would probably offer one anyway, but you knew that, right? 
There are a lot of misconceptions about unschooling. I have actually come to deplore the term, since most people seem to assume your child sits on his or her butt in front of the tv all day and doesn't learn anything. Nothing could be further from the truth.
First of all, I'm going to acknowledge that all kids are not cut out to be educated by this method. There really are some kids who need more of a push. However, I'm in favor of approaching it from the opposite direction than most people - give the child the freedom to do what she wants, and then push as little as possible and only in areas where she has indicated she needs it. I will admit that there are some things you gotta know whether you're interested or not, but I would argue that the list of those is actually fairly small.
Nay-sayers of interest-led education (which is the term I prefer) don't, IMHO, give kids enough credit. Children are naturally curious and love to learn, unless that love has been beaten out of them by a schooling method that wasn't a good fit for them. They learn all sorts of things just by participating in daily life. My kids have learned tons of stuff just by helping with projects around the house, putting the garden in, caring for our animals, collecting eggs and milking the goat.
However, that's not ALL of their education. We go to the library once a week, where they are permitted to check out any book that interests them as long as it meets our standards of morality and taste. I am always amazed at the diversity of the books they choose. Currently on my coffee table there are books on rats, mythology (both Greek and Chinese), Star Wars, and at least 6 other subjects.We get DVD's from Netflix and read all sorts of books aloud. I will admit to sometimes giving a nudge here and there - I'll choose a DVD on a subject I know they haven't been exposed to much or throw a couple of extra books in the bag, but I don't require a study on the subject. If they don't get interested in it, they move on to something else. They use the internet a lot, and I actually do have a math curriculum, although we don't follow it religiously. If they express an interest in something and we don't have the materials they need to learn it, we get them.
What I've discovered is that, left to make choices, they have actually gotten a fairly well rounded education. No, so far none of them has studied calculus or organic chemistry, but there are plenty of people who have never studied those things and do quite well in life. My eldest has finished a web design program and is currently working on starting a business. My 19 yo has been exploring all sorts of things because he's not quite sure what he wants to do yet, but he's still learning and he's been productive. My 17 yo wants to be a writer.
A lot of people ask how my kid could ever get into, say, medical school if we haven't followed a set curriculum. The point they're missing is that if my child actually wants to go to medical school, she will find out what she needs to do in order to get there. That might mean - gasp! - obtaining and completing an actual curriculum in whatever subjects are necessary. The point is that it would be her choice. If she made that choice "late" (say 16 or 17 years old) and had to "catch up" in order to get into college, so what? There is no time limit on learning. She will get much more out of that O-chem course if she is doing it because it will help her meet a goal vs. having Mom cram it down her throat just so we can check it off some list.
So that's my 2 cents and then some.
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If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 2:08:39 AM
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cynthia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cindybode
There are a lot of misconceptions about unschooling. I have actually come to deplore the term, since most people seem to assume your child sits on his or her butt in front of the tv all day and doesn't learn anything. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I agree with this very much. I think people like you ought to ditch the unschooling term, because it is used by a lot of people who are simply lazy and want a label to cover their behinds with. I think that "interest led education" is a much better term for parents who are providing the necessary education for their children. One thing I like about "interest led" is that it doesn't imply that the child is in charge. The parent is still in charge, but very much in tune with their child.
Personally this type of schooling is good for younger kids and in some situations for older kids, but not for most older children, I think there are certain things that are important to understand in order to really walk as strong people in a difficult, sometimes hostile, world that a student ought to know. However, I have a great deal of respect for Cindy. She is doing an amazing thing in homeschooling her children. She has found a way to do it that works for her family and I know it has been a lot of work and at times stressful. I commend you Cindy.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 7:39:41 AM
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Sunnymom
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I don't know how you'd define unschooling- it's a difficult as defining 'homeschooling'- there are 101 ways to do it, so IMO it can't really be defined.
I have 'met' a few 'radical unschoolers' online, and they literally don't require their kids to do ANYTHING schoolish. However, every person I have spoken to so far that meets this description is an atheist. Coincidental? I don't know, but it could be indicative.
However, many of these folks also have a 'lifestyle' of learning. They go places and do things together, live on working farms or have a family business... A few don't have televisions, so kids don't have the choice to sit on their butts all day and let their eyes glaze over. In that sense those parents do exercise some control, even though they would not call it 'control'.
I always refer to myself as a 'relaxed' homeschooler. I do use curriculum for math and language arts, as these subjects to have concepts that must be learned in sequence, so to speak. But even in math, I use the lessons to reinforce real life situations/applications, and not the other way around- using real life to illustrate lessons, KWIM? We also use the 'delight-directed' or 'interest-led' method.
The requirements for graduation differ in most states, but for Ohio, I submitted transcripts to the Army that showed that Seth had completed high school level courses/credits in all the necessary subjects. Since I design the curriculum, I am the one who decides what earns a credit. And since I want my child to receive the best education possible, I wasn't going to help him skate through without doing some challenging work. So far he has had no problems excelling- he is taking college classes online, and was just promoted to driver for the company commander. Although this means when he goes to Iraq in May he becomes the commander's bodyguard. Yikes.
From what I have heard, what some folks think about unschooling is that only a lazy parent would choose it as a method, so they are going to help their child 'cheat' by not requiring they complete any course of study or do challenging work. But haven't we all gotten our kids to do something while still letting the kid think it was their idea all the time?  Another term that might be more helpful is to think of the parent as a 'learning coach' instead of a 'teacher.
BTW, I know some HSers who hand their kids a LifePac at the beginning of the year, and that's it- that's their home education program. Just because someone uses curriculum doesn't mean they are 'structured'. Throwing a textbook at a kid and saying "See me next year" is not a quality education just because a textbook is used.
I also use the term 'deschooling' instead of 'unschooling'. I don't view the traditional classroom method as a model for a good education, and I don't measure what we do by what is being done in schools. An orderly approach does not require one to sit at a desk, say the Pledge of Allegiance in the morning, or own a chalkboard. Nature itself is full of what appears to be chaos, but upon close inspection and magnification one can see the underlying order.
Hope that makes sense. 
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 7:51:54 AM
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Ellie-Mae
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Isn't deschooling usually a temporary thing done to get kids to relax and get used to not being in a classroom after leaving private or public school?
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 8:13:25 AM
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Consecrated2God
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Cindy, I agree that with some children it can work. My oldest would thrive in whatever kind of schooling he was in, because he loves to learn. He would unschool well, because he does pick out books from the library from the non-fiction section on all sorts of subjects that interest him, and will actually read them. But the rest of my kids would play all day if they could. They do very well with a structured curriculum.
But like Cynthia said, I've seen it used by lazy parents. I would think unschooling done right would be more work than structured schooling, not less. I've seen some of the new generation of homeschoolers that I feel are a little sloppy on the academic side, such as spelling. After all, spelling isn't something you learn because you checked out a book on the library because it was your passion this week. It's something you do all through school and learn a little at a time.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 8:19:54 AM
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Ellie-Mae
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Spelling isn't necessarily something that you learn by memorizing lists of words in a curriculum either. Would you believe that spelling was probably my best subject in school? I got 100s on almost all my tests and when I did get something wrong it was because my shaky hand made my handwriting "illegible".
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 8:55:31 AM
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Ellie-Mae
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An unschooler would come to you and say I am putting up an article about the history of cheese on my website so I can share our field trip to the cheese museum with other homeschoolers. Would you take a look at it to be sure that I did it right?
They might also ask you if they can join NaNoWriMo and write a novel of their own that will be at least 10,000 words, and then do the 50 million pages of how to plan and write a book all during October in preparation.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 9:20:18 AM
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Row1
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spelling?
someone pointed this out in a lecture once:
if you studied 20 spelling words per week for 50 weeks each year, that would be 1,000 words per year that you would, hopefully, know how to spell correctly.
After 1st through 12 grade, you would have 12,000 words you could spell correctly!
the average number of words known by the average 12th grader is well beyond 12,000.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 9:27:45 AM
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sen10tious
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Unschooling happens no matter what. Some kids learn sex ed through unschooling. That is not the ideal; but it is hard to discount the strength of experimentation and practical application.
Many parents were unschooled in their own faith and now intentionally leave their child's religious training to unschooling; it is hard to discount the failing of the lack of focus.
Unschooling is a method which has strengths and weaknesses, just as other educational methods do. But what makes unschooling highly effective, as well as what makes it dangerous, is that its success is dependent upon both individual character and time. One teacher cannot successfully unschool twenty-five diverse individuals in a 55-minute classroom hour. One family living through the years can.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 11:40:06 AM
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stellaluna
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As Sunnymom was saying, some subjects (like math) must be learned in sequence.
Bearing that in mind, what happens if you have a child who at 18 decides he or she wants to go to college, which requires upper level math, but they have never gone through a math sequence? Do you start back with a 7th or 8th grade math foundations curriculum and work your way through high school geometry until they're 20 or what?
For that matter, at what point do you begin considering college for your child?
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 12:44:12 PM
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cindybode
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Bearing that in mind, what happens if you have a child who at 18 decides he or she wants to go to college, which requires upper level math, but they have never gone through a math sequence? Do you start back with a 7th or 8th grade math foundations curriculum and work your way through high school geometry until they're 20 or what?
If it were me, I'd start wherever my child was at and work up. I would bet that even the most militant unschooler knows at least basic math by the time they're 10 or 11, because you need it to live your life. It's kinda hard to bake a cake if you don't know fractions. Remember too that if this is a child who wants to go to college, he's going to be motivated. He's going to work through the curriculum quickly, skipping parts he already understands. If you're working on your math for a couple of hours a day, which is what I'd expect a motivated student who has a goal in mind to do, it's very possible to condense 2 years into one. Then you run out and take the CLEP before you forget it all and poof, there's your credit.
My older kids all write very well. I've never actually made them sit down and write a paper on ___. I've also never specifically taught grammar or spelling. They learned that by a) reading a lot and b) correcting their own writing. We chuckle about my 17 yo - she is the "grammar police" in our home, and if you make a mistake on something you've written, boy do you hear about it! Now before y'all jump on me, I fully acknowledge that this won't work for every student. However, in my experience I've found that most parents will never know because they're too scared to try it. They assume that their child has to be pushed to write, and if they do let it go for a bit they panic when their child hasn't written anything in 6 weeks.
My kids have understood from early on that since they have pretty much been allowed to follow their own interests in their education, it's quite possible that they will have to go back and fill in some blanks should their eventual career goals not line up with their education. They are ok with that. Consider how many people you know who totally change careers mid life. My best friend is currently in nursing school - at 48 years old. She never took advanced sciences in high school, so she's taking them now. The world is not ending.
Personally, I would much rather have my child postpone college until he decided on a career path and knew exactly why he was going to college than to waste time and money floundering around because Mom said he had to go. I don't think a college degree is the be all and end all - and yes, I have one, so you know I'm not coming at this from someone who didn't get the chance to go to college.
Thanks for the pat on the back, Cynthia. 
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If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 1:08:41 PM
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Sunnymom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
As Sunnymom was saying, some subjects (like math) must be learned in sequence.
Bearing that in mind, what happens if you have a child who at 18 decides he or she wants to go to college, which requires upper level math, but they have never gone through a math sequence? Do you start back with a 7th or 8th grade math foundations curriculum and work your way through high school geometry until they're 20 or what?
For that matter, at what point do you begin considering college for your child?
I start my kids late in what folks would refer to as 'formal' schooling, and my now 12 yob went from 1st grade to 7th grade math in 3 years.
That's part of deschooling- realizing that 1) textbooks are extremely redundant 2) it doesn't take 7 years to go from adding one digit numbers to Algebra 3) most of traditional school is spent in classroom management, not learning. You can get there in a matter of weeks. It does require building concept on concept, but it is a myth that an adequate education takes 12 years to accomplish. Seth was ready to graduate at 16- he worked a full-time job and took a few extra courses while waiting until 18 to go into the military, and my younger kids will be probably ready to graduate at 14.
I whole-heartedly agree that the term 'unschooling' is often counter productive. The immediate connotation in most folks' minds is complete chaos. I have yet to see even a radical unschooling family fail to adequately educate their children.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 1:58:20 PM
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Consecrated2God
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quote:
An unschooler would come to you and say I am putting up an article about the history of cheese on my website so I can share our field trip to the cheese museum with other homeschoolers. Would you take a look at it to be sure that I did it right?
Wow, my kids wouldn't do that on their own. I can think of very few times they have voluntarily written anything. Joy wrote a story a few weeks ago, and Joy and Sarah tried songwriting once, but it's a rare thing for them to write anything.
I guess what concerns me is that I don't think the basic philosophy of unschooling--the presupposition that children are naturally curious and will therefore learn everything they need to know without being pushed--to be faulty. Maybe some kids are like that, but I don't think most are. I think most kids need more direction. Some kids are naturally clean, too. Other kids have to be forced to clean their rooms. Some kids have to be told every single day to brush their teeth, or they will grow green fuzz on them.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 2:23:07 PM
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Auben
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quote:
I have yet to see even a radical unschooling family fail to adequately educate their children.
Interesting, I've had the opposite experience. I have yet to meet a radical unschooling family who adequately prepares their children for more than one or two things, usually whatever the family is into (karate, dirt bikes, housekeeping, working retail or phones for the family business, etc).
Most of the kids I've seen grow up with that are too intimidated by the amount they need to learn to do something new at 25 or 30. Either that or they are easily discouraged by concentrated study when everything else has been so easy.
All of them can provide for themselves but the ones I speak to regret the lack of discipline and opportunity.
Again, this is radical homeschoolers, meaning the parents do not guide, illustrate, push, decide, regulate, or assign. The child is in complete control and generally follows their own nature and interests. Sometimes that can be really in-depth (some can be great readers but lack application or vice versa) but often that leaves many holes academically and many I have met have difficulty disciplining themselves to do subjects they don't adore (even if it's part of a goal they do like).
Again, that's my experience and doesn't cover everyone who calls themselves Unschoolers. It's a very general term.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 3:20:39 PM
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Ellie-Mae
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
An unschooler would come to you and say I am putting up an article about the history of cheese on my website so I can share our field trip to the cheese museum with other homeschoolers. Would you take a look at it to be sure that I did it right?
Wow, my kids wouldn't do that on their own. I can think of very few times they have voluntarily written anything. Joy wrote a story a few weeks ago, and Joy and Sarah tried songwriting once, but it's a rare thing for them to write anything.
I guess what concerns me is that I don't think the basic philosophy of unschooling--the presupposition that children are naturally curious and will therefore learn everything they need to know without being pushed--to be faulty. Maybe some kids are like that, but I don't think most are. I think most kids need more direction. Some kids are naturally clean, too. Other kids have to be forced to clean their rooms. Some kids have to be told every single day to brush their teeth, or they will grow green fuzz on them.
I used to have trouble getting David to even print his name, much less write a paper. He was very good at making up stories. After hanging out with Ez's kids he started doing a family newspaper where he was writing reports on some of the things going on in our home and around us. He is a research-aholic and he is now writing his first novel this month. last month he came to me and asked me how to do an outline so he could write an outline for his novel. You could have knocked me over with a feather!
He is also putting together his own website. Sarah is wants to write a paper on how we make applesauce to put on that website. She is going to illustrate it with pictures. She is very excited.
David was having a horrible time with math on paper when he was little. he could do simple multiplication in his head but he couldn't do 3+4 on paper. He had a terrible block. finally we threw out all of his math curriculum. 2 months later we bought him new curriculum because he had advanced 2.5 grades during those two months and was now ready to work out of a book. When we had tossed his math curriculum the first thing that he did was to ask us to teach him how to "borrow" in math... he was so thrilled that he got it right away without even using paper.
All this said,you must realize that I am in no way an unschooler. Because what Cindy said applies to me:quote:
Now before y'all jump on me, I fully acknowledge that this won't work for every student. However, in my experience I've found that most parents will never know because they're too scared to try it.
But I am a firm believer that most kids want to learn and will do amazing things when motivated. For many kids "a good grade" or even going on to the next grade is not a motivation for them.
I have learned to set aside their books sometimes when my kids want to take off to explore and let them fly without the curriculum rope tide to their feet.
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Please do not PM me about this message, discuss it at the water cooler, or include it in your church bulletins. If you have questions, please keep them to yourself. ~Kerrlaw
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 6:04:00 PM
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cindybode
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ellie-Mae
But I am a firm believer that most kids want to learn and will do amazing things when motivated.
I agree.
I guess you wouldn't call me a "radical" unschooler. I agree that there are just some things you need to know, and if after a certain point my child hasn't expressed an interest in knowing them, well, you gotta do what you gotta do. However, I do my best to find the spoonful of sugar that will help the medicine go down as opposed to telling them to just suck it up and do it.
I do encourage my kids to go in depth in something that interests them. I doubt if any of them would be intimidated by having to learn a large amount of material. They know they're capable, and if lack of motivation is the issue at least they're honest about it. They are capable of disciplining themselves to get something done, but they do tend to seriously evaluate whether the end result is worth it to them before starting something that's going to be a lot of work. I don't see that as a negative. Don't we all do that?
As for the homeschooled adults you've talked to, Auben, I would question how long one can legitimately blame one's parents for their own lack of discipline or motivation. Granted, it's often easier if those things are instilled early, but at some point you have to own it. That is one thing that's been drilled into my kids once they get into their teens - I can provide plenty of materials and opportunity, I can even require you to read a book or write a paper if necessary, but I can't make you learn. That's up to you.
_____________________________
If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 9:15:33 PM
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Auben
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I didn't say they blamed their parents. I said they regret the lost time and opportunity. I suppose you could call that roundabout criticism but it didn't seem that way since their parents weren't mentioned.
There are many things in life that take practice. Academic (and any other kind really) discipline is one. Plowing through something you don't like to achieve something you want is another. While it is possible to develop those things at 25 or 30 it will take time. Time that is easy to spend when you are 15 and much harder to spend when your 30 and supporting (and being distracted by) a family.
Few of the people I mentioned are whiny. Some I met through tutoring so they were making the effort to move on. Others I knew from my brother's homeschooling group and they haven't moved on well despite their early promise. I worked with some of those individuals and I can attest to their intelligence, but the control is not there. They will continue to be excellent employees at low-paying occupations. Always thinking they deserve better but never quite coming up with the focus to do more.
I'm not attacking you Cindy. Like I said earlier Unschooling covers a wide range of styles. Montessori is a type of Unschooling and I respect it greatly. Interest-led learning is awesome, but if a student is not somehow led or taught or shown how to focus or use discipline in their tasks, to see that sometimes they can get something out of tasks they have no interest in, then they will be lacking in their character...no matter how intelligent or how curious they are. That is one of the cons of Unschooling that I have personally seen. It doesn't define Unschooling but I think it is important to think about.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 9:53:36 PM
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his_chosen
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I am not a "radical" unschooler. However, there are some areas that I don't care WHAT my kids are learning, as long as they are learning to love learning.
When my guys were younger, science was whatever caught their fancy. Ds1 spent several months reading anything and everything about the Apollo missions. Eventually he ran out of books at the library--children's and adult! I did "round it out" a bit by adding history, as in what was going on during that time period. Ds1 also got into model rocketry and also read all he could about Homer Hickem. Dh and the older boys were able to meet him twice. He's a very motivational speaker, having come from a poor coal mining community, winning a science fair, going to college and working for NASA as an engineer.
Now that my guys are getting older we have to think about graduation requirements. So yah, there's stuff that you gotta do, even if you don't wanna do it. But, it will be taylored to their interests. If they are leaning towards engineering, then their science will be more physical science. There's basic life science that they "should" know but why spend time with Biology II when they have no interest?
Right now, all my guys are interested in military aircraft. I let them read/watch all they want. Guess what--that's history (WWII), geography, and science (physics, metalurgy, etc). Not to mention identifying the aircraft and rattling off stats. Mind you, this is all "extra credit" stuff.
Ironically what is teaching them discipline is not school but sports. Three of the boys are duathletes. Ds1 and ds3 also race 5K's. I have a rule--you want to race, you have to train. Ds1 and I have raced against each other three times and he's beat me twice. How did I get him? He didn't train so I let him "fail". Now, he knows that he has to stick with a training schedule. When ds3 and ds4 complained about training (doing the duathlon was their idea), ds1 reminded them that if they wanted to race well, they have to train. Read the chapter and answer the questions would never teach them this.
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You have a choice. You can throw in the towel or you can use it to wipe the sweat off your face.
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RE: Unschooling - 11/6/2008 10:13:55 PM
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cindybode
Posts: 1561
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northwest PA
Status: online
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I don't feel attacked, Auben. I'm just wondering (and we'll never know) how much of what you see is actually due to how they were educated. After all, we all know kids and young adults from a variety of schooling situations, and there always seem to be those who don't work up to their potential, no matter if we're talking public school or school-at-home or anything else. That type of person always seems to feel they deserve better, and they always have a legitimate reason for why they haven't acheived more - lack of opportunity, nobody taught them, and on and on. I'm not saying that's necessarilly true of the people you know, but in my experience a person who really wants to improve will do so in spite of any external circumstances. If we could actually rewind time and put that same person into a different educational situation, it would be incredibly interesting to see how they turned out. I think there's just a certain amount of drive that's hard wired in.
One thing I would like to point out, though, is that plowing through curriculum in a subject you hate is not the only way to learn discipline and stick-to-it-ivness. Taking a bare patch of ground and doing what you have to do to harvest food from it in 6 months is one way. Learning to play a musical instrument is another, and I could go on and on. There are parts of it you hate, there are plenty of times you're ready to give up, but you grit your teeth and get it done because in the end you will achieve something you want.
I'm not attacking you either. I think you have valid points that parents should consider before choosing an interest-led approach. As I've said before, not every child will do well with this style of education, and there are variations even within a single family. A couple of my kids definitely do need more suggestions and direction from me than their siblings ever did. That's the best thing about home education - we don't have to use a cookie cutter approach.
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If you lock in any creature, from rats to chickens to pigs to people, 10 to 30 or more in a box and force feed them you'll create little monsters. Confinement Education School Operations (CESOs) just don't compare to naturally pastured free-ranged kids.
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