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Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 2:05:59 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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So, from what I'm seeing and hearing, here and in other places, it seems like the wheat is quickly becoming distinct from the tares.
I know Jesus will ultimately be the One to judge and separate the two, but, if we have eyes to see and ears to hear, I think we can begin to see the separation process starting to take place.
What say ye?
Examples?
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 4:36:41 PM
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chrisb743
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For me it's like this. I fail.. I have struggles... I wish I could take back so much I've done in my life. I wrestle with the lust of the flesh.. Why do I come out and say that? Because I need a Saviour!!! Jesus Christ.. I just want to be transparent. To be real.. To say that I dont have it all together.. That being said. My opinion is this. I'm seeing more and more Christians walking around as if nothing is happening. Thats it's just ok.. Things will be fine.. They will be fine.. THrough Jesus.. I believe that.. I'm talking right here right now.. The state of this world.. I think people are too comfortable.. They dont long to go home to be with Jesus. We have too many toys, too many favorite tv shows, too many hobbies, too many cushy jobs. etc... you get the picture.. we've made this place our garden of eden. I keep hearing.. aww man.. this will pass... well.. it very well may.. but one day... one day... either through death, or the second coming.. by rapture.. or however you believe regarding that.. one day.. this age will end... People say.. we've been here before.. really? have we? Look at all the things that are happening at a crazy pace now.. I agree.. there has always been tough times.. really tough times... but things are just different now.. Level headed Christians don't get it.. I've seen so many church members have arguments and relationships broken over this past election.. People almost want to get violent over it.. Just talking about politics.. I dont believe there has ever been a time in history like this. I have some pretty strong opinions concerning this nation.. The nation that I love. The nation that has provided me so much.. I've never been without food, shelter, job, freedom of worship, and so on.. But I believe this nation needs to be humbled.. The greed and corruption is way out of hand, and it will never get better.. I dont care who's in office.. We've spit in God's face way too long now.. There's coming a day when he will say enough is enough.. I blessed you.. you cursed me.. There was a time when I was wrapped up with this place too.. I still hope and pray for better for my life.. I'd love to have a better job, maybe get married again one day.. But things have changed for me.. Those desires are not as strong.. It's as if God is saying.. No need my son.. Just a little longer.. A few more things must take place.. I'm giving you different desires.. Wow... I'm afraid I got waaay off topic on that one.. Sorry... just felt like venting.. I said pretty much the same things on another thread I started.. I guess I'm just a little sick of this old nasty place
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 5:00:53 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
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I don't think it was too off track Chris - Basically there are those that follow every doctrine and can't see the truth of where we are upto, also love this world and are in it for the now. Then there are those that are seeking the truth, loving the truth and considering what their heart yearns after. Not too far off track.
Sonic
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 6:09:17 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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It's my opinion that people lose sight of the fact that this life is just a heart beat in eternity. They almost view this life as the main event. That's why they will go to any extent to extend what they have for as long as they can...even when it's not necessarily enjoyable.
Sometimes it's almost like there is a little faith lacking.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 9:01:05 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 438
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Shalom, everyone.
What ARE the "wheat" and the "tares?"
The parable in Matthew 13 is NOT what most people think it is!
Here's the parable:
Matt 13:24-30, 36-43
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
...
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV
This is a parable about THE KINGDOM, and that does NOT mean the "Church!!" That means that this parable is NOT about this time period at all! It's about the Millennium--the future, first 1000 years of the Kingdom of God inherited from Daviyd by his descendent, Yeshua` the Messiah!
First, we have well-defined elements in this parable, defined by none other than Yeshua` the Messiah Himself:
The man who sowed good seed in his field = the Son of man;
The field = the world;
The good seed = the children of the kingdom;
The tares = the children of the wicked one;
The enemy that sowed the tares = the devil [Greek: diabolos meaning "bad-mouther"];
The harvest = the end of the Age [Greek: aion mistranslated "world"]; and
The reapers = the messengers [Greek: aggelioi transliterated "angels"].
With these elements substituted into the parable, it reads this way:
The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man who sowed the children of the kingdom in his world:
But while men slept, the devil came and sowed children of the wicked one among the children of the kingdom, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow the children of the kingdom in thy world? from whence then hath it the children of the wicked one?
He said unto them, The devil hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the kingdom with them.
Let both grow together until the end of the Age: and in the time of the end of the Age, I will say to the messengers, Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the kingdom into my barn.
...
The Son of man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Then, factor in one other passage:
1 Cor 15:20-28
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
THAT'S the way the parable should be seen.
Retrobyter
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 9:48:29 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Shalom, everyone.
What ARE the "wheat" and the "tares?"
The parable in Matthew 13 is NOT what most people think it is!
THAT'S the way the parable should be seen.
Retrobyter
Ah...well, good. Thanks, Retro Byter! It's always good to see someone who knows what's what.
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 10:01:10 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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As for me, I'm seeing, with increasing frequency and numbers, a clearer definition of who is on whose, or which, side.
Like the Bible says...in the end times (which started a couple of thousand years ago, granted) what is right will be called wrong and what is wrong will be called right. That prophecy has never been more clearly obvious than it is today.
And, to further the thought, "many are coming in His name" but are obviously turning out to be tares...the phony baloney. And those people are calling sin "good" and truth "evil". Many of those are even standing behind pulpits in churches and on television.
My wandering point is this: I was not expecting to see this separation prior to the judgement seat. But, lo and behold, we're seeing it NOW! And I believe it's only the elect (and maybe even only a portion of the elect) that are being given the eyes to see it with.
Not scripturally backed, I know. It's just something that's suddenly occured to me. Maybe we're about to see a real purification of the genuine church. I don't know about you, but that's pretty exciting to me! And more than a little scary.
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 10:14:24 PM
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ta_mosquito
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Retro - so you think all the "the Kingdom of God is like..." parables are about the Millennium? Wouldn't (couldn't) the wheat and tares be sown even now?
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 10:29:41 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 438
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Peter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
As for me, I'm seeing, with increasing frequency and numbers, a clearer definition of who is on whose, or which, side.
Like the Bible says...in the end times (which started a couple of thousand years ago, granted) what is right will be called wrong and what is wrong will be called right. That prophecy has never been more clearly obvious than it is today.
And, to further the thought, "many are coming in His name" but are obviously turning out to be tares...the phony baloney. And those people are calling sin "good" and truth "evil". Many of those are even standing behind pulpits in churches and on television.
My wandering point is this: I was not expecting to see this separation prior to the judgement seat. But, lo and behold, we're seeing it NOW! And I believe it's only the elect (and maybe even only a portion of the elect) that are being given the eyes to see it with.
Not scripturally backed, I know. It's just something that's suddenly occured to me. Maybe we're about to see a real purification of the genuine church. I don't know about you, but that's pretty exciting to me! And more than a little scary.
Did you even read what I wrote? Tares, the children of the wicked one PLANTED IN THE KINGDOM WITHIN THE FIRST 1000 YEARS OF THE MESSIAH'S KINGDOM, CANNOT be "standing behind pulpits in churches and on television!" It's the WRONG AGE!
Here's another quote; THIS one is about this age in which we live:
Luke 18:1-8
18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
KJV
And, the context of this parable implies that the answer to this question in His next words would have been, "I DOUBT IT!"
Retrobyter
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 10:54:11 PM
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Josh4LinC
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I know all glory and credit belongs to God, but thanks, Retro, for that lesson. I've never truly understood how to tell anyone what the purpose of the 1,000 year reign of Christ is. Now, this lesson definitely helps to put it in perspective.
I do have one question, however. Isn't Satan bound and gagged for the 1,000 years in the pit until the end of the millennium? If so, how is he actively sowing the tares? I know some have conjectured that unbelievers who don't worship the beast nor accept his mark that live until the glorious appearing may enter this kingdom. What are your thoughts and analysis of this?
I am thankful for the wisdom the Lord has given you in these matters.
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 11:01:07 PM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
And, the context of this parable implies that the answer to this question in His next words would have been, "I DOUBT IT!"
HUH?! LOL. You're referring to the unjust judge in the parable, right?
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/20/2008 11:40:35 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 438
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Josh4LinC.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
And, the context of this parable implies that the answer to this question in His next words would have been, "I DOUBT IT!"
HUH?! LOL. You're referring to the unjust judge in the parable, right?
No, I'm referring to Yeshua`s question, "...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Shall the Son of man find faith when He returns to earth? The context and the Greek tense implies, "No! He won't!"
The parable of the unjust judge is rather unrelated, saying that even an unjust judge will listen to the constant request if he is being harangued by the request! How much quicker will the Righteous Judge listen to a constant request?
Let me give you another prophecy that IS related to the question:
Isa 63:1-6
63:1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.
KJV
Where are the "Christians" when He returns?
Retrobyter
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/21/2008 12:25:47 AM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
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From: Minnesota
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So, this is referring to the Wrath of the Lord, correct? As someone who just recently changed from a pre-trib rapture position to a post-trib position, I am still trying to understand the sequence of end-time events. Is the reason that no faith is found on the Earth because believers are taken out prior to this day of the Lord, albeit after the 3.5 years of great tribulation?
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/21/2008 12:49:26 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 438
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: online
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Shalom, Josh4LinC.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC
I know all glory and credit belongs to God, but thanks, Retro, for that lesson. I've never truly understood how to tell anyone what the purpose of the 1,000 year reign of Christ is. Now, this lesson definitely helps to put it in perspective.
I do have one question, however. Isn't Satan bound and gagged for the 1,000 years in the pit until the end of the millennium? If so, how is he actively sowing the tares? I know some have conjectured that unbelievers who don't worship the beast nor accept his mark that live until the glorious appearing may enter this kingdom. What are your thoughts and analysis of this?
I am thankful for the wisdom the Lord has given you in these matters.
Yes, haSatan is indeed bound and thrown into the Abyss for a 1000 years; however, the sowing is done PRIOR to his incarceration! The 1000 years itself is the time for the "wheat" (and unfortunately, the "tares" as well) to GROW! The Millennium (1000 years; "chilia etee") is NOT how long Yeshua` reigns; He reigns forever (Luke 1:30-33)! The Millennium is NOT how long we reign with Yeshua`; we also shall reign forever (Revelation 22:5)! The Millennium serves a three-part purpose: It is the time that haSatan is incarcerated in the Abyss; it is the time through which the children of the kingdom (and the Kingdom itself) grow; and it is the time through which Yeshua` subdues all of His enemies, the last enemy being Death itself forever (I Corinthians 15:20-26). It is not until AFTER this 1000 years that the earth undergoes the Global Fire (as Noach's earth underwent the Global Flood) and then the New Earth and its New Sky ("Heaven") are created (II Peter 3:3-13; Revelation 21:1-3). Furthermore, the New Jerusalem (Hebrew: "Yerushalayim haChadashah") is revealed in the sky and lands on the New Earth after this and the Kingdom is turned over to Adonai Elohiym YHVH, God the Father, forever (I Corinthians 15:27-28).
There WILL be unbelievers who don't worship the beast who will enter the Kingdom Age; however, they will at first still be in their own countries! Some will have been involved in the battle of Armageddon, their nations judged to have come to Isra'el's aid at some point (including the aid to Gentile believers who are grafted into the Messiah's Kingdom), and allowed to live. Other nations will be judged as heartless to God's people and destroyed! There will also be nations who were NOT involved in the battle of Armageddon who are not judged as a nation. Consider these passages:
Isa 66:18-24
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV
Zech 12-14
1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
Zechariah 13
13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Zechariah 14
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV
Therefore, there will be some countries that still exist which don't know the Lord and must be introduced to Him.
Often in Scriptures, "all" does NOT mean "every last person on the planet!" Sometimes, the word "all" is limited by context! "All" may have been shortened from "all who come against Isra'el!" I believe that the latter part of the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew 25 falls into this category.
Also, one must remember that both the Hebrew word "'eretz" (spelled alef-resh-tsaddai and pronounced "eh-rets") and the Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta and pronounced "gay") mean "earth," "land," THE "Land" (of Isra'el), "ground," or "dirt"; just as the English word "earth" can also mean all of these. Only in context can one determine which meaning of the word is meant by the author in that context. THEREFORE, what I'm saying is this:
Sometimes, the word "earth" may NOT mean the whole planet Earth! It may be restricted to the Land of Isra'el. Only context will determine which usage should be applied. So, one must be EXTREMELY careful how one interprets a passage for himself or herself! One should not only check the original languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek), but one should also carefully check the context of the passage before making any conclusions, especially based SOLELY on ANY English translation of Scripture.
That's my opinion. (Thanks for asking!)
Retrobyter
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/21/2008 8:07:05 AM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Did you even read what I wrote?
Yes, I did.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Tares, the children of the wicked one PLANTED IN THE KINGDOM WITHIN THE FIRST 1000 YEARS OF THE MESSIAH'S KINGDOM, CANNOT be "standing behind pulpits in churches and on television!" It's the WRONG AGE!
So there are no false teachers among us? There are none that claim to belong to Christ that are, in reality, deceivers?
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/21/2008 9:40:56 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 513
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
This is a parable about THE KINGDOM, and that does NOT mean the "Church!!"
I have no problem with your word-for-word translation, but this conclusion of yours is totally your own, which is to say, it is not the truth.
In a way, the parable of the wheat and tares typify this Age and it speaks of the coming Harvest.
Right now we are seeing a division among people.
Right now wickedness is on the increase.
Right now we are beginning to see how the Church is being oppressed.
Soon we will "handed over."
We are the wheat.
The wicked are the tares.
The Harvest is when Jesus comes again and gathers us up.
Then the wicked who have been collected (different word in the Greek than gathered) are burned in the field.
This is a perfect sequence-of-events depiction of the end-time Harvest.
After the midpoint abomination, there will be Great Tribulation - followed by an unexpected sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord.
On that Day, Jesus will gather us up. - Mt 24:15-31.
On the second half of that two-day Day: Jesus, aided by the first Trumpet's fire will burn the tares in the field so to speak as God's Wrath begins.
Meanwhile, we are safe in the "barn" of Heaven as the Great Multitude.
Likewise in the Seal chronology of Rev 4-11, the seventh Seal allows the Scroll to be opened and the "desolations God has decreed" go forth.
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/21/2008 9:55:46 AM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
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So, Saint, in your opinion, who repopulates the earth during the 1,000 year Messianic Kingdom that brings about the end of this age?
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/21/2008 10:17:29 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 513
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC
So, Saint, in your opinion, who repopulates the earth during the 1,000 year Messianic Kingdom that brings about the end of this age?
It's not a matter of my opinion, but what I can discern from the Bible.
In Zechariah, which speaks to Israel about this time, we see two types of people.
First in Zechariah 12:10 we see the Jewish people coming to grips with Jesus the Servant Messiah whom they had pierced as the Messiah King. This is the beginning of the Millennium.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
Now, without any linear aspect to his book overall (indeed, like Isaiah, Zechariah intersperses bits and snatches of visions like a jigsaw puzzle in pieces at times in his narratives) we also know that not all the Jews make it in verses 13:8-9. These verses actually precede the one cited above.
ZEC 13:8 In the whole land," declares the LORD,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
ZEC 13:9 This third I will bring into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, `They are my people,'
and they will say, `The LORD is our God.' "
Now we know from the twin parallel accounts within Revelation chapter 12 that God will protect some of Israel for one half of the one 'seven.' This is the Remnant.
These are the Jews in Judah who flee before the midpoint invasion of the King of the North when he comes and encamps around the Holy Mountain (the Temple Mount) on the eve of the midpoint abomination being erected in the rebuilt Temple. This invasion also begins the Gog/Magog war in my estimation. This is told to us by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.
There are also another set of Jews who flee from Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord according to Zechariah.
ZEC 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
This happens on the Day of the Lord.
Furthermore, for the second group of people, we know from Zechariah that other people will survive the desolations God has decreed which fall during the latter half of the one 'seven' in Zechariah 8:23.
ZEC 8:20 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "Many peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will yet come, 21 and the inhabitants of one city will go to another and say, `Let us go at once to entreat the LORD and seek the LORD Almighty. I myself am going.' 22 And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the LORD Almighty and to entreat him."
ZEC 8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, `Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "
Now I can by aligning specific and unique events merge multiple and parallel accounts of the end-times into a sequence-of-events.
The sequence of events which the Bible presents in its various linear narratives (Daniel, Revelation, the Olivet Discourse, and 1st and 2nd Thessalonians being major passages, chapters, and books with which to build this single timeline) allows me to present a total picture of the Day of the Lord.
Needless to say without posting pages upon pages of material I have already written, the fighting Jesus does on the Day of the Lord in Zechariah 14 will be accomplished on the second half of the two-day Day of the Lord (which follows the pattern of Rosh ha-Shanah).
So to answer your question:
The people who go into the Millennium are two:
1. The Remant third of Israel from Judah and Jerusalem
2. The meek who inherit the earth from the other nations.
Only a few (wicked) people survive the end-times. These people are not the proud ones who propel the world to destruction. But Isaiah tells us that man will be as rare as the gold of Ophir.
Oddly enough, the wicked leaders who are in the world today have no problem with drastically reducing the earth's population to only 500 million. They would have no problem with killing a little more than 6 billion souls. This is their plan for paradise on earth. It is part of the earth-first secular humanism movement. They have no part of Heaven.
Not to complicate matters, there are additional Jews who are resurrected to an eartly existence. They will be added to the two groups listed above so that prophecy in Ezekiel will be fulfilled just as Paul indicated that ALL of Israel will be saved.
< Message edited by Sinner-Saint -- 11/21/2008 10:26:06 AM >
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/21/2008 11:55:05 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2016
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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Isn’t it possible that the Wheat and Tare Parable is an ongoing process, starting at the return of Christ at the end of this age and will end with the finial separation of righteous from evil at the end of the millennium?
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Mat 13:40-41
It seems that there will be two times that people offend and do iniquity.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/21/2008 12:23:38 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Isn’t it possible that the Wheat and Tare Parable is an ongoing process, starting at the return of Christ at the end of this age and will end with the finial separation of righteous from evil at the end of the millennium?
Bob
That makes the most sense to me and seems consistant with the totality of scripture. It seems that we are very near to this separation/judgement because of the polarization we're seeing in all things Christian.
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/21/2008 11:03:42 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Oh, yeah, I see it. Folks who don't believe God's word is the truth vs those who believe. I'm seeing a lot of it in the past few months. And you will see more as the those who trust God grow and grow while those who don't grow more into the world and less into God.
kim
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
So, from what I'm seeing and hearing, here and in other places, it seems like the wheat is quickly becoming distinct from the tares.
I know Jesus will ultimately be the One to judge and separate the two, but, if we have eyes to see and ears to hear, I think we can begin to see the separation process starting to take place.
What say ye?
Examples?
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/22/2008 1:50:19 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 513
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Isn’t it possible that the Wheat and Tare Parable is an ongoing process, starting at the return of Christ at the end of this age and will end with the finial separation of righteous from evil at the end of the millennium?
Well yeah, it's possible, but I don't think it applies to the end of the world in the literal sense which does occur at the end of the Millennium.
Let's try a newer version:
MT 13:40 "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age."
aion can be interpreted as Age.
While you are correct that those at the end of the Millennium will offend the Lord, and as such there are two times that people offend and do iniquity; that second time is a turning of the whole world.
At the end of the Millennium, there is no Harvest; there are no Elect to save.
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RE: Wheat and Tares - 11/22/2008 10:40:58 AM
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