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how can there be a literal word-for-word translation? - 11/29/2008 9:16:19 PM
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colliefan
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From: Raleigh, NC
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In the bible wars, much discussion is made about the merits of a word-for-word translation versus a thought-for-thought translation. Given the complexity of langauge considering grammar, culture, etc. can such a thing as a literal word-for-word translation exist?
For example, consider the shift in meaning in the word "gay" over the past hundred years. Of course, the message conveyed in the original transcript is inerrant. The issue is how does one translate that text so the intended message is not lost?
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RE: how can there be a literal word-for-word translation? - 11/29/2008 10:03:26 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1884
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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While it would technically be possible to make a word-for-word translation, it would not read very well. I'm not overly familiar with Hebrew grammar, but I know that if we took the Greek word-for-word, most sentences would make little to no sense.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: how can there be a literal word-for-word translation? - 11/29/2008 11:32:28 PM
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LCannon
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From: Lebanon, OR
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Word/word often impairs, skews or destroys rather then enhances the context the text.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: how can there be a literal word-for-word translation? - 11/30/2008 1:27:29 AM
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stellaluna
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Even translations between modern languages are not word-for-word because they wouldn't make sense either.
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RE: how can there be a literal word-for-word translation? - 12/1/2008 12:16:43 PM
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benelchi
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Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
In the bible wars, much discussion is made about the merits of a word-for-word translation versus a thought-for-thought translation. Given the complexity of langauge considering grammar, culture, etc. can such a thing as a literal word-for-word translation exist?
For example, consider the shift in meaning in the word "gay" over the past hundred years. Of course, the message conveyed in the original transcript is inerrant. The issue is how does one translate that text so the intended message is not lost?
It is not possible to make a word for word translation because there is not a one to one relationship between words in different languages. Hebrew for example is extremely concise and an single Hebrew word can translate to a complete English sentence i.e. 'achaltinu' means 'I have eaten it' and then there are words in Hebrew like the particle 'et' for which there is not English counter part; it is never translated into English. Sometimes the addition of words not present in Hebrew is required for a sentence to be properly understood in English. As an example, the verb 'to be' in the present tense is almost never present in a Hebrew sentence, but is often required for proper understanding in English i.e. 'The king good' in Hebrew translates to 'The king is good' in English, but "The King the good" in Hebrew translates to "The good king" Oh and 'The King (hamelech)' in Hebrew is one word because the definite article never stands alone. There are many, many more issues that make true word for word translations impossible. Similar differences exist between Greek and English, and even Greek and Hebrew.
What is typically meant by "word for word" translation is what would be called a "formal equivalent" translation, and a "thought for thought" translation is what would be called a "dynamic equivalent" translation. Given the example of above "the king good (hamelech tov)", a formal equivalent would be "The king is good". Sometimes a formal equivalent translation can lead to a misunderstanding of Scripture, for example "beney yisrael" would be translated as "son's of God" using the formal equivalent method; however, in Hebrew there is no neuter form and very often the masculine plural is inclusive of the feminine gender (the feminine gender is never inclusive of the masculine), so typically most translations (even the KJV) translate this phrase as the dynamic equivalent "children of God" rather than the formal equivalent "son's of God" because the latter would lead to a misunderstanding of the text. The reality is that none of the generally accepted translations is a true "formal equivalent" translation; every translation employs the use of dynamic equivalence when the translator believed that it is necessary for the proper understanding of the passage. The difference between versions is in the degree to which they employ dynamic equivalence. Versions like the KJV, NKJV, ESB, NASB try to avoid dynamic equivalent translations whenever they believe that a formal equivalent sufficiently conveys the intent of the author, but versions like the NIV, TNIV, NLT, NRSV tend to employ dynamic equivalence far more often, each in varying degrees.
Sometimes a literal translation can be quite startling (especially when every English version uses dynamic equivalence). For example, Job 1:11 literally reads "But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has and he will surly bless you to your face." The euphemistic use of "bless" is used several times in Job 1 & 2.
Note: the example you gave in regards to the changing meaning of "gay" is the reason why new translations should continue to be made. It doesn't represent a problem with the method of translation, but simply highlights why translations need to be revised to be properly understood. BTW the word "gay" is used in the KJV in James 2:3, and it does not mean "homosexual."
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RE: how can there be a literal word-for-word translation? - 12/1/2008 12:24:38 PM
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rrtt11
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From: Colorado Springs
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I found a really nice compromise with the www.bible.org. It includes the reasons for translating a verse a particular way and possible alternate translations. It also has historical and commentary notes for each verse. Some 60k of them.
You have to buy the computer one or a regular hard copy bible but they have a free online version and a free e-sword copy with much much fewer notes.
_____________________________
1Co 10:13 No trial has overtaken you that is not faced by others.9 And God is faithful: He10 will not let you be tried beyond what you are able to bear,11 but with the trial will also provide a way out so that you may be able to endure it.
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RE: how can there be a literal word-for-word translation? - 12/1/2008 12:34:31 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 3629
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rrtt11
I found a really nice compromise with the www.bible.org. It includes the reasons for translating a verse a particular way and possible alternate translations. It also has historical and commentary notes for each verse. Some 60k of them.
You have to buy the computer one or a regular hard copy bible but they have a free online version and a free e-sword copy with much much fewer notes.
I think the NET/NExT bible project is a very good one, and I really appreciate the extensive footnotes. Having a "soft" version of the bible has allowed them to really address the difficulty of making revisions. And the footnotes allows them to explain why the believed such a reversion was necessary for properly understanding a verse.
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