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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/9/2005 1:20:29 PM
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meep meep
Posts: 89
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"God's sovereign choice of Abraham means what in regards to people worshipping false gods, and the supposed "church" giving them gold star for doing so?"
It means [contrary to your very erroneous opinion] that Islam, like Christianity has Biblical roots.
The Bible tells us Ishmael was Abraham's firstborn. Ishmael was the father of what are today many of the Arab/Muslim nations (see the scriptural references to the Moabites, Midianites, Ammonites, Ebionites etc.)
Yet while Ishmael was the firstborn, he was not the one through which the promise of salvation would emerge - it was to be through Isaac who was Ishmael's BROTHER.
Sarai dealt harshly with Hagar and she was cast away, along with Ishmael. Yet God in His infinite love did not abandon them. Read Genesis 16:3-10 and see the promise that GOD (same God as Abraham's) made to Hagar. Read further, and see the prophecy in 16:12. Read also Genesis 21:18
Read also Isaiah 19:18-25; 60:7-9 about the role of those descendants in the plan of salvation, and Jeremiah 12:14-17 about God's compassion for them and, again, their role in the plan of salvation.
Isaac and Ishmael were BROTHERS and they buried their father together. Gen 25:89.
As Catholics we abhor ALL sin in all of us. But we are aware of the promises of God in scripture and we see how the SAME God longs for ALL his children to come to His saving knowledge.
As Christians who follow the Bible we have no reason to deny the promises of the ONE God to our wayward brothers, hoping and praying like Abraham before us that one day Ishmael, too, might live before God.
Now, I ask you - is God a liar? Does he welch on His promises? Does he not provide for those who are lost?
In Christ,
Meep meep
_____________________________
"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies." - Augustine, The True Faith
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/9/2005 10:50:07 PM
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S.Benedict
Posts: 29
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This is in a short form what Catholics believe about salvation, or what one must do to be saved. It is an excerpt from a pamphlet called Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth published by Catholic Answers.
WHAT MUST YOU DO TO BE SAVED
Best of all, the promise of eternal life is a gift, freely offered to us by God (CCC 1727). Our initial forgiveness and justification are not things we "earn" (CCC 2010). Jesus is the mediator who bridged the gap of sin that separates us from God (1 Tim 2:5); he bridged it by dying for us. He has chosen to make us partners in the plan of salvation (1 Cor 3:9).
the Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches: We are saved by grace alone, but not by faith alone (which is what "Bible Chrisitans" teach; see Jas. 2:24).
When we come to God and are justified (that is enter a right relationship with God), nothing preceding justification, whether faith or good works, earns grace. But then God plants his love in our hearts, and we should live out our faith by doing acts of love (Gal 6:2).
Even though only God's grace enables us to love others, these acts of love pease him, and he promises to reward them with eternal life (Rom 2:6-7, Gal 6:6-10). Thus good works are meritorious. When we first come to God in faith, we have nothing in our hand to offer him. Thsn he givces us grace to obey his commandments in love, and he rewards us with salvation when we offer these acts of love back to hin (Rom 2:6-11, Gal 6:6-10, Matt 25:34-40).
Jesus said it is not enough to have faith in him; we also must obey his commandments. "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' but do not do the things I command?" (Luke 6:46, matt 7:21-23, 19:16-21).
We do not "earn" our salvation through good works (Eph 2:8-9, Rom 9:16), but our faith in Christ puts in us a special grace-filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life (Rom 2:7), Gal 6:8-9).
Paul said, "God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work" (Phil 2:13). John explained that "the way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, 'I know him,' but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4, 3:19-24, 5:3-4). Since no gift can be forced on the recipient - gfts always can be rejected - even after we become justified, we can throw away the gift of salvation. We throw it away through grave (mortal) sin (John 15:5-6, Rom 11:22-23, 1Cor 15:1-2; CCC 1854-1863). Paul tells us, "The wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23).
read his letters and see how often Paul warned Christians against sin! He would not have felt compelled to do so if their sins could not exclude them from heaven (see, for example, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21). Paul reminded the Christians in Rome that God "will repay everyone according to his works; eternal life for those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wroath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness" (Rom 2:6-8).
Sins are nothing but evil works (CCC 1849-1850). We can avoid sins by habitually performing good works. Every saint has known that the best way to keep free from sins is to embrace regular prayer, the sacraments (the Eucharist first of all) , and charitable acts.
Are you guaranteed heaven?
Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolue assureance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hears as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that the belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching.
Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: "If we have died with him [in baptism: see Rom 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim 2:11-12). If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him,. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven (CCC 1861).
The Bible makes it clear that Christiand have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24], but hte Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation.
Writing to Christians, Paul said, "See, then, the kindness and severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom 11:22-23, Matt 18:21-35, 1 Cor 15:1-2, 2 Pet 2:20-21).
Note htat Paul includes an important condition: "provided that you remain in his kindness." He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor 10:11-12).
If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been "saved", you should say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in Him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am 'working out my salvation in fear and trembling' (Phil 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."
_____________________________
I am already saved, but I’m also being saved, and I have the hope that I will be saved. Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 6:25:29 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear John,
All who turn God from a Person into an idea of God worship a false deity. It is not necessary to have the correct understanding of God to worship Him, witness Paul to the Athenians.
The Athenians were attempting to cover all bases... In all honestly are Mulsims attempting to cover all bases, or do they have a set idea who they believe they worship?
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 6:39:42 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
It means [contrary to your very erroneous opinion] that Islam, like Christianity has Biblical roots.
Most false religions have bibical roots... The Roman Catholic Church is a prime example... Many cults that are listed have "Biblical roots"... It's not uncommon for false things to use the truth to shield its agenda...
quote:
As Catholics we abhor ALL sin in all of us.
Since when do Catholic believe all have sinned? Has something changed???
quote:
But we are aware of the promises of God in scripture and we see how the SAME God longs for ALL his children to come to His saving knowledge.
Chirst said more than once those who deny Him will be denied by Him to His Father... You really believe that God allows some of "His children" to burn in Hell? Not to mention how does your version of God escape being a failure?
quote:
As Christians who follow the Bible we have no reason to deny the promises of the ONE God to our wayward brothers, hoping and praying like Abraham before us that one day Ishmael, too, might live before God.
The bible is clear that not all are "brothers" and that God will show who isn't and who is...
1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
quote:
Now, I ask you - is God a liar? Does he welch on His promises? Does he not provide for those who are lost?
I suppose you should direct that question at those you claim worship God and deny Christ in the same breath, or those who are in Hell...
Btw, God isn't a liar (He never promised to save all of mankind, nor did He ever intend to), ALL those given to the Son will come to Him and the rest are left in their state of sin, and God is no less righteous in either case...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 6:52:09 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: S.Benedict
This is in a short form what Catholics believe about salvation, or what one must do to be saved. It is an excerpt from a pamphlet called Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth published by Catholic Answers.
WHAT MUST YOU DO TO BE SAVED
Why not just post:
SALVATION BY WORKS
Are you guaranteed heaven?
This guy was...
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
John 5: 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
How does one pass back into death? Can it be called eternal life if it's really not?
John 10: 27 - 30 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
Whose greater than God?
Jude 24 - 25 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Christ only keeps those "who help themselves" from stumbling?
quote:
If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been "saved", you should say, "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in Him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am 'working out my salvation in fear and trembling' (Phil 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."
I believe you short changed God with your view of Philippians 2...
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Not to mention the following...
Philippians 1: 6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Perfect=complete...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 6:58:56 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear John,
All who turn God from a Person into an idea of God worship a false deity. It is not necessary to have the correct understanding of God to worship Him, witness Paul to the Athenians.
The Athenians were attempting to cover all bases... In all honestly are Mulsims attempting to cover all bases, or do they have a set idea who they believe they worship?
John
Dear John,
Do Muslims worship an idea, or a Person? The Athenians do seem to have been trying to cover all the bases, but who are we to contradict Paul?
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 9:02:38 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
It means [contrary to your very erroneous opinion] that Islam, like Christianity has Biblical roots.
Most false religions have bibical roots... The Roman Catholic Church is a prime example... Many cults that are listed have "Biblical roots"... It's not uncommon for false things to use the truth to shield its agenda...
quote:
As Catholics we abhor ALL sin in all of us.
Since when do Catholic believe all have sinned? Has something changed???
quote:
But we are aware of the promises of God in scripture and we see how the SAME God longs for ALL his children to come to His saving knowledge.
Chirst said more than once those who deny Him will be denied by Him to His Father... You really believe that God allows some of "His children" to burn in Hell? Not to mention how does your version of God escape being a failure?
quote:
As Christians who follow the Bible we have no reason to deny the promises of the ONE God to our wayward brothers, hoping and praying like Abraham before us that one day Ishmael, too, might live before God.
The bible is clear that not all are "brothers" and that God will show who isn't and who is...
1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
quote:
Now, I ask you - is God a liar? Does he welch on His promises? Does he not provide for those who are lost?
I suppose you should direct that question at those you claim worship God and deny Christ in the same breath, or those who are in Hell...
Btw, God isn't a liar (He never promised to save all of mankind, nor did He ever intend to), ALL those given to the Son will come to Him and the rest are left in their state of sin, and God is no less righteous in either case...
John
Dear John,
All Christians agree that "not all have sinned." We disagree about the number of such.
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 7:11:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear John,
All who turn God from a Person into an idea of God worship a false deity. It is not necessary to have the correct understanding of God to worship Him, witness Paul to the Athenians.
The Athenians were attempting to cover all bases... In all honestly are Mulsims attempting to cover all bases, or do they have a set idea who they believe they worship?
John
Dear John,
Do Muslims worship an idea, or a Person? The Athenians do seem to have been trying to cover all the bases, but who are we to contradict Paul?
They worship something made up...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 7:14:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
It means [contrary to your very erroneous opinion] that Islam, like Christianity has Biblical roots.
Most false religions have bibical roots... The Roman Catholic Church is a prime example... Many cults that are listed have "Biblical roots"... It's not uncommon for false things to use the truth to shield its agenda...
quote:
As Catholics we abhor ALL sin in all of us.
Since when do Catholic believe all have sinned? Has something changed???
quote:
But we are aware of the promises of God in scripture and we see how the SAME God longs for ALL his children to come to His saving knowledge.
Chirst said more than once those who deny Him will be denied by Him to His Father... You really believe that God allows some of "His children" to burn in Hell? Not to mention how does your version of God escape being a failure?
quote:
As Christians who follow the Bible we have no reason to deny the promises of the ONE God to our wayward brothers, hoping and praying like Abraham before us that one day Ishmael, too, might live before God.
The bible is clear that not all are "brothers" and that God will show who isn't and who is...
1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
quote:
Now, I ask you - is God a liar? Does he welch on His promises? Does he not provide for those who are lost?
I suppose you should direct that question at those you claim worship God and deny Christ in the same breath, or those who are in Hell...
Btw, God isn't a liar (He never promised to save all of mankind, nor did He ever intend to), ALL those given to the Son will come to Him and the rest are left in their state of sin, and God is no less righteous in either case...
John
Dear John,
All Christians agree that "not all have sinned." We disagree about the number of such.
No... The RCC claims its Goddess(Mary) is without sin, and attempts to use Christ as the example, of course nobody other than Christ was fully man and FULLY God as well...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 7:31:14 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Dear John,
We have no Goddess. Does your "no" mean that you disagree with us that Christ was sinless?
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 9:59:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
We have no Goddess.
Ok.... How about these...
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix
quote:
Does your "no" mean that you disagree with us that Christ was sinless?
Chirst was fully man and fully God... Take all the time you wish to find a man or women liken to Him...
Of course anyone you speak of not having sin you're elvating to His status, which is breaking His law...
John
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/10/2005 10:41:52 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
We have no Goddess.
Ok.... How about these...
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix
quote:
Does your "no" mean that you disagree with us that Christ was sinless?
Chirst was fully man and fully God... Take all the time you wish to find a man or women liken to Him...
Of course anyone you speak of not having sin you're elvating to His status, which is breaking His law...
John
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Dear John,
We will all be elevated to a sinless status. Why else were we saved? How else can we enjoy Heaven? The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. No one is sinless on his own.
On the Feast of St. John of Avila
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/11/2005 8:23:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
We have no Goddess.
Ok.... How about these...
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix
quote:
Does your "no" mean that you disagree with us that Christ was sinless?
Chirst was fully man and fully God... Take all the time you wish to find a man or women liken to Him...
Of course anyone you speak of not having sin you're elvating to His status, which is breaking His law...
John
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Dear John,
We will all be elevated to a sinless status. Why else were we saved? How else can we enjoy Heaven? The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. No one is sinless on his own.
Still looking for a man or woman who was fully God(as well as fully human) like Christ?
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/11/2005 8:49:00 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
We have no Goddess.
Ok.... How about these...
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix
quote:
Does your "no" mean that you disagree with us that Christ was sinless?
Chirst was fully man and fully God... Take all the time you wish to find a man or women liken to Him...
Of course anyone you speak of not having sin you're elvating to His status, which is breaking His law...
John
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Dear John,
We will all be elevated to a sinless status. Why else were we saved? How else can we enjoy Heaven? The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. No one is sinless on his own.
Still looking for a man or woman who was fully God(as well as fully human) like Christ?
John
Dear John,
Nope. Still believe in the Immaculate Conception and the sinlessness of Mary as well.
On the Feast of St. Francis Jerome
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/12/2005 7:16:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
We have no Goddess.
Ok.... How about these...
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix
quote:
Does your "no" mean that you disagree with us that Christ was sinless?
Chirst was fully man and fully God... Take all the time you wish to find a man or women liken to Him...
Of course anyone you speak of not having sin you're elvating to His status, which is breaking His law...
John
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Dear John,
We will all be elevated to a sinless status. Why else were we saved? How else can we enjoy Heaven? The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. No one is sinless on his own.
Still looking for a man or woman who was fully God(as well as fully human) like Christ?
John
Dear John,
Nope. Still believe in the Immaculate Conception and the sinlessness of Mary as well.
Might as well be calling God a liar...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/12/2005 9:43:19 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
We have no Goddess.
Ok.... How about these...
Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix
quote:
Does your "no" mean that you disagree with us that Christ was sinless?
Chirst was fully man and fully God... Take all the time you wish to find a man or women liken to Him...
Of course anyone you speak of not having sin you're elvating to His status, which is breaking His law...
John
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Dear John,
We will all be elevated to a sinless status. Why else were we saved? How else can we enjoy Heaven? The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin. No one is sinless on his own.
Still looking for a man or woman who was fully God(as well as fully human) like Christ?
John
Dear John,
Nope. Still believe in the Immaculate Conception and the sinlessness of Mary as well.
Might as well be calling God a liar...
John
Dear John,
Nope. I glorify God "for He has done great things for me." And her. Neither of us deserve it. It didn't stop Him.
Holy is His Name.
On the Feast of St. Pancras
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/13/2005 9:45:27 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
Nope. I glorify God "for He has done great things for me." And her. Neither of us deserve it. It didn't stop Him.
Declaring the Goddess of the Roman Catholic Church to be sinless doesn't glorify God.
For the record If you have time please give scripture that supports that Mary was without sin, or anyone else... Please note that any attempt to use Christ will fail since nobody other than Christ was fully man and FULLY God...
John
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/13/2005 10:51:49 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Nope. I glorify God "for He has done great things for me." And her. Neither of us deserve it. It didn't stop Him.
Declaring the Goddess of the Roman Catholic Church to be sinless doesn't glorify God.
For the record If you have time please give scripture that supports that Mary was without sin, or anyone else... Please note that any attempt to use Christ will fail since nobody other than Christ was fully man and FULLY God...
John
John
Dear John,
Since we have no Goddess, I'm not worried about it.
Since Scripture never claims that Scripture contains everything, I'm not worried about it.
Since we understand the Immaculate Conception and the sinlessness of Mary to be a result of Christ's saving work to His glory, I'm not worried about it.
On the Feast of St. John the Silent
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/14/2005 1:16:17 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1826
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Since we have no Goddess, I'm not worried about it.
sdaw:
It should be of great concern to anyone who has studied the Gospels and the epistles that any other person -- no matter how wonderful -- should be placed alongside the Lord Jesus Christ and given any recognition or titles whatsoever. If Christ -- who is God manifest in the flesh -- is not sufficient for all our needs, then we have nothing.
On the other hand, if Christ is All-Sufficient -- which He is indeed -- then any veneration of any person or object is idolatry. That is the plain and unvarnished Bible teaching beginning with the First Commandment: "Thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before me". That word "before" in Hebrew is al which can mean "above", "over", "against" or "beside".
For all the mythology created by the Catholic Church to venerate Mary, the fact is that in Scripture she is "the woman" period, and Christ is the Seed of "the woman". It is no accident that the Lord always addressed her as "woman" never as "mother", even at the Cross.
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/14/2005 7:57:58 AM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Since we have no Goddess, I'm not worried about it.
sdaw:
It should be of great concern to anyone who has studied the Gospels and the epistles that any other person -- no matter how wonderful -- should be placed alongside the Lord Jesus Christ and given any recognition or titles whatsoever. If Christ -- who is God manifest in the flesh -- is not sufficient for all our needs, then we have nothing.
On the other hand, if Christ is All-Sufficient -- which He is indeed -- then any veneration of any person or object is idolatry. That is the plain and unvarnished Bible teaching beginning with the First Commandment: "Thou shalt have NO OTHER GODS before me". That word "before" in Hebrew is al which can mean "above", "over", "against" or "beside".
For all the mythology created by the Catholic Church to venerate Mary, the fact is that in Scripture she is "the woman" period, and Christ is the Seed of "the woman". It is no accident that the Lord always addressed her as "woman" never as "mother", even at the Cross.
Dear Ezra,
I agree, no one should be placed alongside the Lord Jesus Christ, except those the Father wants there. Remember James and John arguing about this?
If veneration of the Saints is directed toward them without reference to God, you are correct, that is idolatry. Proper veneration of the Saints makes a very careful distinction between dulia and latria, and recognizes in the saints the glory that is God's.
The only places in which Christ speaks to Mary individually and directly occur in John. John has his own purposes in his use of language.
I know your opinion of the Catholic Church, for you have told me many times. However, your post expressed your opinion in charitable way. If I could, I would give you two points for it. I don't mean that in a patronizing way.
On the Feast of St. Matthias the Apostle
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/14/2005 6:57:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Nope. I glorify God "for He has done great things for me." And her. Neither of us deserve it. It didn't stop Him.
Declaring the Goddess of the Roman Catholic Church to be sinless doesn't glorify God.
For the record If you have time please give scripture that supports that Mary was without sin, or anyone else... Please note that any attempt to use Christ will fail since nobody other than Christ was fully man and FULLY God...
John
John
Dear John,
Since we have no Goddess, I'm not worried about it.
Since Scripture never claims that Scripture contains everything, I'm not worried about it.
Since we understand the Immaculate Conception and the sinlessness of Mary to be a result of Christ's saving work to His glory, I'm not worried about it.
I'll give you credit that you don't even pretend to have scriptual support for the RCC's belief regarding its Goddess...
John
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/14/2005 8:34:09 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Nope. I glorify God "for He has done great things for me." And her. Neither of us deserve it. It didn't stop Him.
Declaring the Goddess of the Roman Catholic Church to be sinless doesn't glorify God.
For the record If you have time please give scripture that supports that Mary was without sin, or anyone else... Please note that any attempt to use Christ will fail since nobody other than Christ was fully man and FULLY God...
John
John
Dear John,
Since we have no Goddess, I'm not worried about it.
Since Scripture never claims that Scripture contains everything, I'm not worried about it.
Since we understand the Immaculate Conception and the sinlessness of Mary to be a result of Christ's saving work to His glory, I'm not worried about it.
I'll give you credit that you don't even pretend to have scriptual support for the RCC's belief regarding its Goddess...
John
Dear John,
If I leave your post out until sunrise, will the troll turn to stone?
On the Feast of St. Matthias the Apostle
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 5/15/2005 8:36:29 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Nope. I glorify God "for He has done great things for me." And her. Neither of us deserve it. It didn't stop Him.
Declaring the Goddess of the Roman Catholic Church to be sinless doesn't glorify God.
For the record If you have time please give scripture that supports that Mary was without sin, or anyone else... Please note that any attempt to use Christ will fail since nobody other than Christ was fully man and FULLY God...
John
John
Dear John,
Since we have no Goddess, I'm not worried about it.
Since Scripture never claims that Scripture contains everything, I'm not worried about it.
Since we understand the Immaculate Conception and the sinlessness of Mary to be a result of Christ's saving work to His glory, I'm not worried about it.
I'll give you credit that you don't even pretend to have scriptual support for the RCC's belief regarding its Goddess...
John
Dear John,
If I leave your post out until sunrise, will the troll turn to stone?
I can say it will, or not, but I can say that you'll never be able to support your beliefs on this matter with scripture, or have them align with scripture, and in this case they go against scripture on many levels.
You *understand* Mary to be sinless due to nothing but church doctrine(that is at odds with scrpiture), and nothing to do with the word of God, simply attaching the supposed belief to Christ doesn't make it correct and I would submit that doing so is asking for trouble... Scripture says all have sinned, anything that says otherwise is not of God...
John
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