|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/15/2008 3:32:51 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
Dear DH,
I didn’t mean to start a debate on disadvantages of blogging as communicational channel, sorry, i mentioned dear friend TF's blog because I borrowed his quote, and I would be unfair not to site the source.
What I am interested in is this :
Current RC system of doing various externals as a sign of faith have a high possibility to create empty religionists, making it easy for people to think that going thru the preset row of motions would mean one is saved.Opinions on how exactly catholic approach this problem is what I want. The problem is universal to all denominations, humans are just prone to fall into the trap of religion and being duped by it. I didn’t mean to say RC is worse, but I do see the clear danger here.
quote:
Simply by observing the fruits that faith produces. This is all it takes to guess as to the effectiveness of faith and a Church - observe the behavior of its followers and practicers.
Sure, that is true. But I was rather referring to the serious danger of people thinking that they are saved themselves ,based on what they do. Again, no need to bring up Protestants, I know they are just as guilty.
( you said you don’t like word RCC, DH?I was unaware something it’s not right with that.. or you just meant you don’t like it being abbreviated? How would you rather like it? tell me I will be typing it that way, gladly)
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/15/2008 9:53:38 PM
|
|
|
loco79
Posts: 90
Joined: 6/18/2008
Status: offline
|
Here is a section from the book "The epistles of Romans and James"
We can critique the so-called “actual/declarative” model of
Protestant James Buchanan in a similar fashion. Although it may be
theoretically plausible to insert a two-stage justification — one actual,
one declaratory – in Abraham’s life, it is not possible to do so with
Rahab. Rahab’s justification is not divided into two phases as is
Abraham’s. Thus, using Buchanan’s terms, if we are to understand
Rahab’s justification in Jm 2:25-26 as a declared justification, this leaves
no room for her actual justification. On the other hand, if we are to
understand the justification of Rahab in Jm 2:25-26 as her actual
justification, then there is not only no room for her declared justification,
there is also no verbal declaration from God in Joshua 2 that Rahab was
justified. Moreover, if Rahab’s justification in Jm 2:25-26 is an actual
justification, then Abraham’s justification in Jm 2:24 must also be an
actual justification, since James states specifically that Rahab was
justified “in the same way” as Abraham. This would of course mean that
Abraham’s justification in Genesis 22 was also an actual justification
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/16/2008 1:52:54 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1826
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: loco79
Here is a section from the book "The epistles of Romans and James"...
.. This would of course mean that Abraham’s justification in Genesis 22 was also an actual justification
These are certainly a lot of words which actually say very little. First of all, there is no such thing in the Bible as "declared" vs "actual" justification.
When God declares a sinner righteous, He also makes him righteous at the same time, by imputing the righteousness of Christ to that sinner's account, and placing "the robe of righteousness" upon him.
Bu that is not the only thing that seals justification, and makes "declared" and "actual" one and the same. God also washes that sinner with the blood of Christ, forgives his sins, and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of the new birth, and the gift of eternal life (which is the gift of Christ within). This is what salvation consists of. Therefore all this hot air about actual vs decalred righteousness is simply that -- meaningless.
The sinner who is justified by God's grace is also perfect in His sight!
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/16/2008 5:44:54 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 875
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
The sinner who is justified by God's grace is also perfect in His sight! Not if he refuses sanctification and rejects grace by continuing to sin and refusing to repent and correct both behavior and opportunity to sin.
One can be justified by faith and remain unsanctified by performing (or not performing) actions that do not reflect that faith.
As long as faith instructs the believer that charity is unnecessary as a part of a Christian lifestyle, that faith and instruction is flawed. Those that imitate Christ by what they accomplish are righteous. Those that talk about faith and how much they believe, but act with disdain and a lack of compassion towards their fellow men, are rejecting God's grace and God's promise by choosing to behave as they are in spite of what they profess they believe.
If you believe that "imputed" righteousness is the righteousness that results from imitating Christ, longing for justice and treating others with compassion while practicing charity, then you are sharing the Catholic view and belief on the matter.
This belief was fundamentally changed by the reformers, who dismissed and abandoned charity, compassion and mercy as a requirement for Christian living and faith. This is the legacy of Calvin upon the Christian landscape.
So pick your camp. Either charity is a requirement or not. If you believe it is, then you share the view of Roman Catholics everywhere.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/16/2008 5:57:02 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 875
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
Current RC system of doing various externals as a sign of faith have a high possibility to create empty religionists, making it easy for people to think that going thru the preset row of motions would mean one is saved.Opinions on how exactly catholic approach this problem is what I want. The problem is universal to all denominations, humans are just prone to fall into the trap of religion and being duped by it. I didn’t mean to say RC is worse, but I do see the clear danger here. A danger throughout all of Christendom is seperating salvation from conversion.
You're right, one can read the Bible everyday, go to Church every Sunday, pray daily. These are all actions, but these actions do nothing and really say nothing about faith. For unless we read the Bible to grow our living, personal relationship with God, go to Church with the sole intent and purpose of worshipping and glorifying Him and giving thanks for everything He has given us, and pray fervently for those who seem to us to need His help, aid, comfort, grace and direction - then we are not really converted by participating in these things.
Conversion is what saves us. And in my opinion, the Roman Catholic Church, its instruction and practices, do a very good job with this.
This site is full-up with threads and examples of "legalism". If you believe that memorizing Bible passages makes you a Christian, you may as well be Jewish (nothing wrong with Judaism - better this than pagan, I say). If the passages are memorized from repeated readings in trying to discern what life is handing you and a desire to figure out what that means and how to react - then you are participating in conversion.
If we change a little everyday - for the better - we are allowing ourselves to be converted, to be saved.
If we come here to pre-judge people based on labels we apply to them, then we are not participating in conversion, no matter how we justify our segregational behaviors.
I don't find this to be a Catholic/ Protestant issues at all, but a universal one. There are some mighty poor pastoral leaders out there in the world and no single group can lay claim to a monopoly on them.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/17/2008 9:38:23 PM
|
|
|
TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
Status: offline
|
Some people promote a very attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior." The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible & constant Christian teaching.
Recall this Scripture: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, ff we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end, well........
The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).
Note that this includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be infallibly sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.
As a Catholic, when someone asks me if I have been "saved," I answer: "I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/19/2008 12:06:55 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1826
Status: offline
|
quote:
A danger throughout all of Christendom is seperating salvation from conversion.
quote:
Some people promote a very attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as "their personal Lord and Savior."
Catholics need to wake up to the fact that while there are many false gospels out there, there is also the true Gospel being preached every day.
Therefore attempting to focus on what is false, while avoiding that which is true is simply unprofitable.
The true Gospel -- which has not become obsolete -- is that conversion (or repentance) is essential to salvation (Acts 3:19) and that those who are saved must deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world (Tit. 2:11,12).
Having said that, the blatant error of Catholicism is the outright denial that justification is indeed by grace through faith plus nothing!
The Catholic equation for salvation is:
Salvation = grace + faith + Mary's intercession + the saints' intercession + affiliation to the RCC + sacraments + good works + X number of Hail Marys + indulgences, since in the end you must still face Purgatory!
This is a travesty and a mockery and an outright rejection of the true Gospel.
So until and unless the RCC preaches the true Gospel, it is somewhat naive and hypocritical to focus on the other false gospels in order to deny genuine Gospel truth.
The RCC also preaches "another gospel". That's the real issue.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 7/19/2008 12:38:37 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/19/2008 12:27:40 AM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1826
Status: offline
|
quote:
but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven.
In that case, the Christian's salvation must indeed be quite pathetic.
If the incarnation of Christ and His perfect finished work of redemption (through His death, burial and resurrection) are insufficient to guarantee Heaven to all those who believe on Him, then there is no Good News -- there is no Gospel! All we have is a "hope so" salvation based upon our own pathetic good works.
The Bible is indeed very, very clear about the guarantee of eternal life (1 Jn. 5:1-21).
And since Christ Himself is our Eternal Life (1 Jn. 1:2), and since He is indeed in Heaven (Heb. 1:3), the saint who is saved by His grace, washed in His blood, clothed with His righteousness, made a new creature in Christ through the new birth by the power of the Holy Spirit, and baptized into the Body of Christ, has ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation. God Himself is the Guarantor! Christ Himself is our Salvation!
If this is not true, then one might as well belong to any other religion, since all religions teach that men are saved by their own merits and good works (and the use of their rosaries)!
Isn't it rather interesting that Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists and Roman Catholics all have their rosaries to cling to? There must be some magical power in those beads.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 7/19/2008 12:41:05 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/19/2008 7:32:59 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 875
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
If the incarnation of Christ and His perfect finished work of redemption (through His death, burial and resurrection) are insufficient to guarantee Heaven to all those who believe on Him, then there is no Good News -- there is no Gospel! In my opinion, you are trying to put words in people's mouths here.
No one is denying the salvic power of faith in Christ, nor the omnipotent power of God. All we are doing is recognizing that this is faith, not fact, and that to have faith, one must also have hope and desire. We don't have to have hope about facts; facts are what they are.
How many times have you witnessed assured salvation being used to tribalize or to set people up into the "haves" and "have nots"? By recognizing faith and requiring hope, there is a humility and penitence that becomes present to keep it real for us that heaven is a gift from God, and that we desire to be with Him and hope He judges us with mercy and compassion - both of which He has revealed to us that He possesses plenty of.
That's all that's being said regarding assurance. You are trying to set the argument on its head - there is no need for that.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/20/2008 9:20:42 PM
|
|
|
Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 145
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
Status: offline
|
quote:
there is also the true Gospel being preached every day.
And you can hear it EVERY SINGLE DAY at thousands of Catholic Churches around the world.
Here's a link to find one in your area.
Mass Times
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/20/2008 10:13:33 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
O:
Current RC system of doing various externals as a sign of faith have a high possibility to create empty religionists, making it easy for people to think that going thru the preset row of motions would mean one is saved.Opinions on how exactly catholic approach this problem is what I want. The problem is universal to all denominations, humans are just prone to fall into the trap of religion and being duped by it. I didn’t mean to say RC is worse, but I do see the clear danger here.
DH:
A danger throughout all of Christendom is seperating salvation from conversion.
You're right, one can read the Bible everyday, go to Church every Sunday, pray daily. These are all actions, but these actions do nothing and really say nothing about faith. For unless we read the Bible to grow our living, personal relationship with God, go to Church with the sole intent and purpose of worshipping and glorifying Him and giving thanks for everything He has given us, and pray fervently for those who seem to us to need His help, aid, comfort, grace and direction - then we are not really converted by participating in these things.
Conversion is what saves us. And in my opinion, the Roman Catholic Church, its instruction and practices, do a very good job with this.
...If we change a little everyday - for the better - we are allowing ourselves to be converted, to be saved.
Appreciate the answer, DH, and i like it very much. It is true - humility, love for God and fellow brethren, fruit of the Spirit being exibited in our lives is a sign of true christianity(as good as it gets , we are not God to judge.) Very well put.
Glad to see we so wonderfully agree on that essential Christian truth.
My catholic friend (she is a christian Catholic) agrees with you , she said the same, maybe just less eloquently.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/21/2008 7:00:32 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 875
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
The Catholic equation for salvation is:
Salvation = grace + faith + Mary's intercession + the saints' intercession + affiliation to the RCC + sacraments + good works + X number of Hail Marys + indulgences, since in the end you must still face Purgatory! I have seen this nonsense before (R. C. Sproul, as a matter of fact...). Let me help you out.
Salvation = faith X actions
If we have strong faith, but do not act that out, we have no salvation (if actions = "0", then salvation = "0"). If we have weak faith, our faith is multiplied by our actions to affect our salvation. But if faith = "0", then no amount of action will result in salvation.
You must have seen the R. C. Sproul equation somewhere. Even he couldn't get it right, so you are in good company.
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/21/2008 9:50:10 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1826
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
The Catholic equation for salvation is:
Salvation = grace + faith + Mary's intercession + the saints' intercession + affiliation to the RCC + sacraments + good works + X number of Hail Marys + indulgences, since in the end you must still face Purgatory! I have seen this nonsense before (R. C. Sproul, as a matter of fact...). Let me help you out.
To "help me out", the first thing you should have done is honestly admit that this is what the RCC teaches, instead of mocking Sproul. I could show you chapter and verse from the CCC, but when one is in denial, no amount of evidence will suffice.
quote:
Salvation = faith X actions
Sure, this is what your church teaches (another gospel), but what does Scripture say?
Salvation = JESUS (YESHUA = GOD OUR SALVATION). The name Yeshua itself says it all.
So no matter how much faith you have and no matter how many good works you have, ultimately you have no security whatsoever.
On the other hand, when Christ Himself is our Salvation, He is our Righteousness, He is our Life, He is our Resurrection, He is our Strength, He is our Peace, He is our Perfection. He Himself is our Salvation. This is absolute assurance for a sinner saved by grace.
quote:
If we have strong faith, but do not act that out, we have no salvation (if actions = "0", then salvation = "0"). If we have weak faith, our faith is multiplied by our actions to affect our salvation. But if faith = "0", then no amount of action will result in salvation.
This is the false doctrine of the RCC parading as truth. The funny thing is you left out the Sacraments, so do you believe in salvation through sacraments or not? You also left out the Catholic Church. That is not a work but an institution. Does that mean you do not believe in salvation through your church?
quote:
You must have seen the R. C. Sproul equation somewhere. Even he couldn't get it right, so you are in good company.
Actually I did not see Sproul's equation, but he got it more than right. It is you who are not divulging the whole truth about what your church really teaches. Including the part that Mary plays in your salvation.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/21/2008 11:32:29 PM
|
|
|
Ps103
Posts: 11746
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Please keep accusations of lying like this:
quote:
It is you who are not divulging the whole truth about what your church really teaches. Including the part that Mary plays in your salvation.
off the thread.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/24/2008 7:26:28 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 875
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
I could show you chapter and verse from the CCC Then do it...
quote:
He Himself is our Salvation. This is absolute assurance for a sinner saved by grace. He is our salvation on two fronts. One of those fronts is His example and His instruction, left with the Apostles. To follow Him is to do just that, mimic Him and His example. It is in this discipline and obedience that we find grace - and this grace saves us. You seem to go from point "A" to point "Z" without giving us the playbook for "L-M-N-O-P"...
By the way - there is no absolute assurance of salvation. If there is, then there is no hope required, nor desire. Christianity is not fact - it is faith. We use that word all the time, because we believe, we don't know. This implies faith and hope - none of which have to possessed when dealing with a fact...this what Paul meant by by love being the greatest of faith, hope and love. When Jesus returns, faith will fall away to fact. Hope will be fulfilled, and will no longer be required (Jesus will be here; we don't have to hope for His presence and hope that He is for real). Love doesn't change. When Jesus returns - love will still be love.
quote:
This is the false doctrine of the RCC parading as truth. You have a life-long Catholic instructing you otherwise...I am comfortable to let those who read this thread judge as to who is authoritative here when it comes to knowing what the Roman Catholic Church instructs and practices.
quote:
The funny thing is you left out the Sacraments, so do you believe in salvation through sacraments or not? Sacraments are the means by which grace is conveyed to the faithful. We don't just conjure up grace out of thin air, Scripture instructs us as to how we are presented grace and how we are to accept it, and where it comes from. Within my equation, the Sacraments are an action we do in faith - because we were instructed to do so by Jesus, because these actions are an outward sign of the inward grace conveyed, and because participating in the Sacraments is shown to be effective in shaping our Christian journey - the process by which and in which we are indeed saved.
quote:
It is you who are not divulging the whole truth about what your church really teaches. Its a more accurate observation to note that many who participate on this website believe that the Catholic Church instructs certain things, and when corrected by a Roman Catholic, they continue to believe what they believe so strongly that they are willing to bear false witness against their neighbor in this most public of places for all to see.
I am satisfied to allow people to judge each of our faiths by the fruits that result from us following each of them - you yours and me mine. I am here primarily to correct and educate people about the myths and falsehoods being spread about my faith.
What are you here for?
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/24/2008 8:01:10 PM
|
|
|
TheCatholicCrusader
Posts: 203
Joined: 7/10/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
The funny thing is you left out the Sacraments, so do you believe in salvation through sacraments or not?
The Sacraments are what they are: The Sacraments.
It was JESUS who said: "...Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves..." (John 6:53) Sounds to me that this must be done, or else "you have no life in yourselves".
It was JESUS who said: "...Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God..." (John 3:5). We didn;t make that up. If you don't do it, you "cannot enter into the kingdom of God".
On the related issues of Justification and Grace: I know that some folks do not like to be bothered with actual "facts", but here is what the church teaches regarding grace & justification:
quote:
CCC 1996: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us..."
CCC 2010: "Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification..."
CCC 1992: "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men."
Catholics do NOT believe in justification by works apart from Christ. As usual, the Catechism (CCC) is out there for all to see, but people would rather parrot anti-Catholic rhetoric then bother to actually read what the Church teaches - and I don't mean read what the Church teaches according to Jimmy Swaggart or Jack Chick, I mean read what the Church teaches according to the Church.
You guys might want to read this link too: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp
.
.
< Message edited by TheCatholicCrusader -- 7/24/2008 8:08:45 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/27/2008 1:13:48 AM
|
|
|
JesKlu
Posts: 552
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
|
Hello TheCatholicCrusader,
I agree with you in that I do not believe in OSAS. But, I do believe that if someone continues in repentence they can have assurance of salvation also. So I am in between. I do agree that the Sacraments also play an important role. In baptism God washes away a persons sins and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-39). In Communion we truly receive Christ's body and blood (1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:23-29). But there is a point of disagreement. The Roman Catholic Church is more works based because they say when we die, we go to purgatory. So in order to get less time there are certain works we are to do to receive less time such as Rosaries, Chaplets, Novenas etc... That is saying Christ's atoning sacrifice was insufficient.
But I do have a question for you, since you seem to be so devout and evangelical like. If I may ask, are you a member of Opus Dei?
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/27/2008 2:48:42 PM
|
|
|
Ezra
Posts: 1826
Status: offline
|
quote:
In baptism God washes away a persons sins and gives him the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38-39). In Communion we truly receive Christ's body and blood (1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:23-29).
Jesklu:
I am sorry to see that you are in agreement with Catholic error. The RCC believes and teaches that the sacraments are essential to salvation. That is not what Protestants and Evangelicals believe or teach.
I will address this in a little more depth later, but beware of agreeing with Rome. Baptism does not wash away our sins, and in Communion we do not literally partake of Christ.
I will address this with Scripture, even though Scripture means little to those who put Tradition on a par with, or higher than Scripture.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 7/29/2008 6:35:17 PM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 875
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
The Roman Catholic Church is more works based because they say when we die, we go to purgatory. So in order to get less time there are certain works we are to do to receive less time such as Rosaries, Chaplets, Novenas etc This isn't exactly how it works...no wonder you have a problem with purgatory.
I would too if this is what was going on...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/2/2008 6:52:10 PM
|
|
|
JesKlu
Posts: 552
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doghouse
quote:
The Roman Catholic Church is more works based because they say when we die, we go to purgatory. So in order to get less time there are certain works we are to do to receive less time such as Rosaries, Chaplets, Novenas etc This isn't exactly how it works...no wonder you have a problem with purgatory.
I would too if this is what was going on...
Hello Doghouse,
That is exactly how it works. There are many ways to obtain them, partial and plenary. Saying the Rosary, going to church on certain feast days, such as the 2nd Sunday of Easter (Divine Mercy Sunday), and many formal prayers have indulgences connected to them, including praying before a crucifix, the Anima Christi etc..
There are also certain conditions you have to meet to get a plenary indulegence. That is salvation by works, not by grace through faith.
Oh, and by the way, the Catholic Church compares getting a plenary indulgence to baptism. They explain that when a person gets a plenary indulgence the person becomes as if just baptized. To me, that is heresy to the core. Comparing anything to baptism is not acceptable. It is plain wrong. Baptism is God's Work, indulgences is man's work. They are not comparable.
If you want proof that the Catholic Church believes indulgences is equal to baptism, here is the EWTN website
http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/what.htm
"The person becomes as if just baptized and would fly immediately to heaven if he died in that instant."
The sentence in quotes is in the first section of the EWTN website I posted.
Your younger sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/4/2008 6:48:24 AM
|
|
|
Doghouse
Posts: 875
Joined: 8/25/2007
From: The Buckle of the Bible Belt
Status: offline
|
quote:
That is salvation by works, not by grace through faith. Only if it is mechanical...quoted from the same article further down the page...
"This depends, naturally, on our openness to God's grace. A mechanical performance of an indulgenced work would not have effect. Performing an indulgenced work should have the consequence of fixing our will away from our sins and entirely on God. This is why among the most important of the conditions for receiving a plenary indulgence, and the hardest to satisfy, is the complete detachment or detestation of our sins. By detesting our sins we orient our will away from creatures (to the degree we love them inordinately), towards God. In this way we open our will to the action of His mercy flowing into our souls, which alone is able to effect the complete remission of the temporal punishment to our sins."
Are we not required to live our faith? To action it? Or may we just pay lip service to it? Don't worry about what you do and say - Jesus's got the tab...
_____________________________
When someone virtuous turns away from virtue to commit iniquity...it is because of the iniquity he committed that he must die. But if he turns from the wickedness he has committed, he does what is right and just, he shall preserve his life" - Ez 18:25-28
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/4/2008 11:22:19 AM
|
|
|
JesKlu
Posts: 552
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
|
Doghouse,
To say we must perform indulgences is to basically say the Cross of Christ is insufficient for our salvation. I am not OSAS, but you don't find indulgences in the Bible. I believe Catholics have a very warped view of Jesus, believing He is only this tyranical judge who will judge you on the last day. No Catholic really speaks of Jesus' Mercy, because Catholics don't believe Jesus is merciful, only Mary is merciful.
Here is a quote from the Diary of St Faustina. I used to be so devout in this devotion that I know what I am talking about.
Divine Mercy in My Soul
686 + September. First Friday. "In the evening, I saw the Mother of God, with her breast bared and pierced with a sword. She was shedding bitter tears and shielding us against God's terrible punishment. God wants to inflict the terrible punishment on us, but He cannot because the Mother of God is shielding us. Horrible fear seized my soul. I kept praying incesstantly for Poland, for my dear Poland, which is so lacking in gratitude for the Mother of God. If it were not for the Mother of God, all our efforts would be of little use. I intensified my prayers and sacrifices for our dear native land, but I see that I am a drop before the wave of evil."
That is just so twisted.
It is not the Mother of God who shields us from God's wrath, but it is Jesus who shields us from God's wrath. That is the work He did on the Cross. This whole passage in her diary is saying Mary is the one who shields us from God's Wrath, not Jesus. No wonder the Catholics don't have a personal relationship with Christ and turn to Mary instead. They believe He is this terrible judge, and Mary is mercy. Mary has totally replaced Christ.
And this diary speaks of indulgences all the time. And so-called Jesus, in these visions, is really not merciful, again He's just this judge. Oh, if you pray this Chpalet, you will be shown mercy at the hour of death. So, what if you don't do it? Then you'll go to hell? It is 100% salvation by works. And this is the reason why Catholics put Mary in the place of Christ, because she'll shield them from God's wrath, not Jesus. But if they got rid of indulgences and purgatory, I bet, praying to Mary will be gotten rid of along with purgatory and indulgences.
This only goes to prove the Roman Catholic Church is 100% works based, and if they ever speak about Mercy, they always talk about Mary being the one who is merciful. It is just so twisted.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/4/2008 10:57:40 PM
|
|
|
Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 145
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
Status: offline
|
Jesklu,
It seems there is some confusion regarding indulgences, purgatory, and salvation.
Indulgences do not earn us salvation.
Only people on their way to heaven go to purgatory.
The only people indulgences help are those already "saved".
quote:
No Catholic really speaks of Jesus' Mercy, because Catholics don't believe Jesus is merciful, only Mary is merciful.
Why must you bear false witness?
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Catholicism - 8/4/2008 11:05:59 PM
|
|
|
Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 145
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: FL
Status: offline
|
quote:
I believe Catholics have a very warped view of Jesus, believing He is only this tyranical judge who will judge you on the last day
This from the person who said 5 year old children who have never heard of Jesus go to hell?
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
