RE: Political polarization within the church: what are we to do?
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/8/2010 7:12:17 PM
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yankeedoodled
Posts: 194
Joined: 5/29/2006
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quote:
Gralan:
I don't often think of the womanizing drunken Benjamin Franklin when I'm in a Christian setting attempting to understand a parable that is to explain the concept of political polarization in the Church.
Did I misunderstand?
Yankeedoodled:
Don’t think so, when it comes to; let him who is without sin cast the first stone, you took the example to cast bolders. Benjamin was a strongly p[rofessing Christian that chastized the Congress when it would veer away from God. You talk of not sowing dissension among believers, eh ? Odd way to accomplish that, eh ?
quote:
Gralan:
In my parable, I was making the point that this is not a movie about us. All of this is about God or about us. I choose to give God all the glory and kudos.
Yankeedoodled:
The American Revolutionary War was not just a movie. Perhaps you ought consider suing public education for damages ?
quote:
Gralan:
We are strangers in this land. To take up arms defending worldly politics to the point of character assassination and dividing the church into the Us and Them when the Bible doesn't make that division (I do not find Republican or Democrat in the Bible), is to plant on someone else's land.
Yankeedoodled:
We are not to be partakers of iniquities with those that commit sacrilege, abominations and deep offense to God…..You didn’t know ? I find those that practice the ancient Baal and Molech human sacrifice of children quite real today, they now call it ‘choice’ abortion, as they also advocate the old Druid Earth worshipping now calling it environmentalism, but let us not forget abomination as man lying with man. You cannot lie with such and not escape unscathed. A price WILL BE PAID IN BLOOD, God promises it.
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils. 1 Cor. 10:21
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the Doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in The Doctrine of Christ, he hath both The Father and The Son.
If there come any unto you, and bring not this Doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God Speed:
For he that biddeth him God Speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 2 John 9-11
Yankeedoodled:
It matters not at all that the wolves have infiltrated the flock, they do not, by default, receive as full unquestioned brothers in Christ.
quote:
Gralan:
They reap the benefits, not you.
This is not our home world, in a manner of speaking. We have been purchased by God with the blood of the Lamb. We belong to a different Kingdom. Jesus Christ is our Lord and Master.
I thought that was plainly obvious, so why didn't you get it?
Yankeedoodled:
I rebuke the blind who would stridently lead the blind and unsuspecting into the ditch or pit.
quote:
Gralan:
I am against any causing of false division in the Church.
Troublers and folks who cause discord in the fellowship was actually a big problem as far as Jesus and the Apostles were concerned which is why they taught on that subject very plainly.
Yankeedoodled:
The problem has not been divisions, but rather the acceptance to avoid division that has allowed the wicked to infiltrate the Church. Far too much leniencyacceptance has begotten the wolves accepted in the flocks.
quote:
Didymus101:
I asked this question in the other thread and received no answer: How does patriotism honor God and promote the kingdom of heaven?
Yankeedoodled:
.In a Judeo-Christian nation patriotism is a parallel with good Christian stewardship as they serve the same God and His nation of God’s principles/laws/spirit.
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/8/2010 9:06:45 PM
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didymus101
Posts: 1211
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yankeedoodled, these are Ben's own words near the end of his life:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire,
•I think his system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes,
•and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity;
•though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.
•I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed;
•especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure.
Your view that "Benjamin was a strongly p[rofessing Christian" is wrong by Franlin's own words.
Blindly accepting what someone else or some book says is not wise.
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/8/2010 9:20:33 PM
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didymus101
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The injunction in Romans13 not to rebel is plain. The American Revolution clearly violated the Word. Show me anything in Scripture that supports rebellion against the "established authorities." We are to submit unless it violates conscience and then we practice civil disobedience, as numerous examples in the OT and NT show, not to change the law but out of simple obedience to God.
Mixing worldly politics and favoritism for certain groupos of people with the purity of the word corrupts our message.
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/8/2010 9:56:34 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17670
Joined: 2/28/2005
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quote:
There was a thread earlier about "patriotism" but it is appropriate for discussion here because it lends itself to polarization.
I asked this question in the other thread and received no answer: How does patriotism honor God and promote the kingdom of heaven?
Please don't attempt to drag another discussion into this one. That other thread is over 15 pages, so it's getting plenty of attention. Here is the link to the other thread: Is Patriotism a sin?
Thank you for your cooperation.
Sincerely
Kath
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/9/2010 1:08:14 PM
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Abbreviated
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I am still waiting for ONE example of Political polarization within the church. Just one eye witness account. Just ONE. I don't think that is asking too much.
I think these scriptures apply :
quote:
Romans 14 (New King James Version)
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Our society is polarized.
Jesus Christ Himself was polarizing.
Christians are polarizing or should be.
America is NOT a democracy but a Representative Republic. We MUST elect those who represent us. One can do that outside the church walls so I don't see the problem.
_____________________________
1959-20__ Who are you living your dash for ?
Jackie
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/9/2010 2:50:15 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 637
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quote:
Mixing worldly politics and favoritism for certain groupos of people with the purity of the word corrupts our message.
Strange -- Jesus did just that, when He attacked the ruling class of Israel and its media mouthpieces, the Pharisees and Scribes. Let me cite a portion of today's blog, dealing with Matt. 23:
quote:
The resentment-driven underclass in America esteems a practice they call "sticking it to The Man." The Man is the personification of the social structure they blame for their woes.[1]
Jesus had a better idea -- outperform The Man. Self-governing people, people who honor the Lord as their king, live better lives than slaves.[2] This chapter is a withering indictment of the ruling class of first century Israel. Like the Mayor played by Bill Murray in the excellent little movie City of Ember, these people were willing to see their society collapse, as long as their own nests were feathered.[3]
...
The ruling class is where it is, so we need to be aware of them. However, we do not need to take them as seriously as they take themselves. Rush Limbaugh became an overnight success after 17 years, by simply pointing out the discrepancies between what the ruling class said, and what they actually did. The "filling" in this sandwich chapter is the withering scorn Jesus poured upon the heads of the ruling elite and its media outlets. Injunctions for His disciples to do better. As Kingdom people, as self-governing people, we should not be driven by the power lust that characterizes contemptible rulers.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/9/2010 3:37:49 PM
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didymus101
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RJR, first, you have avoided answering the questions I asked about your statements on "indicting and prosecuting the evildoers with prayer when we gather to worship" as well as how that works on a day to day basis (do we make a list throughout the day?) as well as the question on who are these "enemies of God and man" you speak of when there is one enemy.
Second, making Jesus out to be a politician and the word to be worldly political strategy is skewed. He pointed out sin, hypocrisy; it was not an attack on the ruling class as a political entity. He did not attack the Roman
ruling class (so it was not about class structure) because they did not know better, did not know the law. Jesus was speaking about a spiritual realm, the kingdom of God, and not remodeling "fallen" structures in the worldly realm, the kingdom of evil. (Before you claim that is gnosticism, please use your concordance and study the references to "worldly" and "worldliness.")
What you quote is a gratuitous monoloque excusing political activism, having a loud and judgmental mouth: it is not even close to Scripture.
Jesus did not come to change the world ("capture the culture") but to change the heart of souls. It is easy to put our own meaning into any verse; support that view from the full gospel.
"Self-governing people"? What a preposterous statement for a Christians. We are slaves--and we live far, far better that way than by being self-governing. Yet when the Constitution becomes a book of the Bible, it does not appear that way, I know.
If Jesus was about politics he would have attacked the cruel, pagan, and tyrannical rule of Rome. He did not. His advice: submit. (And I already know your counter-argument to that advice and it cannot be biblical.)
"Worldly" is defined as the people and institutions that have not accepted Christ as lord and savior of the world; it is the "fallen" nature of things.
< Message edited by didymus101 -- 2/9/2010 3:47:19 PM >
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 7:54:06 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 637
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quote:
Jesus did not come to change the world ("capture the culture") but to change the heart of souls.
It was the day of the weekly union meeting. The burly construction workers, most of whom had Dunlap Disease[1], filed into the union hall, carefully polished hard-hats gleaming in the cheerful sunlight, tool-belts replete with like-new implements of construction. They gathered to read the Building Codes and supporting ASTM specifications. The shop foreman collected the union dues, and launched into a lecture on how good the Building Codes could make them feel about being construction workers. How wonderfully written they were, and how much they could honor the Author of the Building Codes by appreciating his writing style.
They selected the portion on the required slump and compression strength of the concrete that is suitable for standard footers. They read the pericope aloud, then talked about how good this paragraph should make them feel about themselves. Did they fell properly about themselves after reading it? If not, what mental disciplines should they undertake to help themselves feel better about the text?
The room fell silent as a stranger walked in, a man whose suntanned complexion contrasted strongly with his white hard hat, clean hands, and tidy clipboard. "Do you realize," the stranger asked, "that the crew building the skyscraper next door have replaced the concrete in the footers with compressed and painted mud bricks? A lot of folks are going to get hurt when that thing comes down. Including us."
A murmur of surly resentment arose from the gang.
"Do you realize that, since the price of copper has gone up, the electricians in this town have switched over to aluminum wire? A lot of people are going to get hurt when their homes catch fire in the middle of the night."
The murmur grew louder, uglier.
"Do you realize that the plumbers have found a way to save time and money, by piping the drinking water up through the sewer pipe? A lot of folks are going to be dying of typhus, dysentery, and other water-born contagions."
The shop steward slammed his shiny ceremonial 20-oz. framing hammer on the desk, and set the interloper straight.
"If we cared about those matters," he calmly and reasonably explained, "Then that would distract us from our studies of the Building Code. Our tools might get chipped, worn down, perhaps even dirty."
"Besides, who are we to tell those folks how things ought to be? What's going on out there is none of our business. Besides ...." here, he paused, and looked expectantly to the gang for the ritual chant that ended all such nonsense ....
Everybody knows that everything must get worse!
[1] Dunlap Disease -- your belly done lap over your belt!
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 8:32:20 AM
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didymus101
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RJR, I take it there will be no Scripture for the post where you said that we are to "indict and prosecute evildoers, the enemies of God and men, by prayer when we gather to worship." I will take it, then, that it was just one of those moments you got carried away into puffery. Most of us have done that here.
And the morale of the Dunlap Disease Builders: if you are not involved in political activism, you are doing nothing for the kingdom of God? We should be looking to free the proletariate from their chains of the "ruling class," like Jesus did? Interesting....
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 10:25:21 AM
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didymus101
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Abbreviated, partisan backing and campaigning for a political party and treating members who are of the opposing political bent differently because of their views.
Announcing in the same breath, "I am a Conservative Repubilican Christian."
Being a Conservative Republican has come to mean the same thing in this area as saying you are a true Christian. In many circles, if you are not a Conservative Republican you are admitting, at the very least, to being an immature Christian, although most opinions are far stronger than that.
This same antagonism exists on the other side of the dividing line.
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 11:27:51 AM
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sue244
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Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. James 4:17
In America we have a chance to do good through many means, be it voting, running for office, or just getting ideas out there. My Conscience would never allow me not to vote on certain issues facing the US. I will not violate my conscience and what is the good thing to do just because you think Christians should never be involved in politics in any form.
What advantage would there be to Christians withdrawing into their own little circle and letting the world continuing on its path of destruction. How is it loving, since you love to throw that world around" to withdraw your voice, or all of Christian voice form the world.
quote:
if you are not involved in political activism, you are doing nothing for the kingdom of God? We should be looking to free the proletariate from their chains of the "ruling class," like Jesus did? Interesting....
You really like throwing the liberal label at those you know are not liberal. Interesting....
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 11:53:02 AM
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Tarox
Posts: 722
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abbreviated
I am still waiting for ONE example of Political polarization within the church. Just one eye witness account. Just ONE. I don't think that is asking too much.
I think these scriptures apply :
quote:
Romans 14 (New King James Version)
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God." 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way. 14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.
Our society is polarized.
Jesus Christ Himself was polarizing.
Christians are polarizing or should be.
America is NOT a democracy but a Representative Republic. We MUST elect those who represent us. One can do that outside the church walls so I don't see the problem.
Well, I'm not sure if this meets your criteria, but it came to mind.
Back in '05 or '06, I was the head of a college Bible study (smallish, about 20 of us) and before the semmester started I got a call from a guy claiming to be part of an "anti-genocide" group. Darfur was in the news and he wanted to come give a talk, so I said sure.
He showed up, set up his equipment, and showed us a 45 minute presentation of aborted fetuses. Slide after gruesome slide.
When he was done, he wanted to know if we'd sponsor him (since we were an officially recognized student group) to set up some giant pictures like these on campus. I politely told him that while we did not support abortion, we didn't feel this was a strategy for combatting it that we wanted to be involved with. I truly and genuinely was as polite as possible. He was about done backing his stuff up by the time I explained this, and he kind of scoffed and said "I'm sorry, I thought this was a Christian group."
We were about 80% moderates, with a few people who felt strongly on the left and the right. Our die hard liberal girl started chewing him out, and it was one of the most satisfying things I've ever seen.
That's what's so damaging about affiliating outselves so closely to one party or the other. Most of the people in that group were anti-abortion. But we just felt that displaying gorey and disgusting images (which drove a few of the girls to tears) was not a good way to win hearts.
I don't think being "Conservative enough" is a good basis for discerning if someone is "Christian enough".
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 12:03:05 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 637
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quote:
RJR, I take it there will be no Scripture for the post where you said that we are to "indict and prosecute evildoers, the enemies of God and men, by prayer when we gather to worship."
And the Lord said, "I will give my people a hymnbook. I will make it the longest book in the Bible, and the middlest book in the Bible. The most prominent writer will be the man I call 'The man after my own heart.' My people will read these songs, sing these songs, chant these songs, and become wise."
"Oh, NO!" screamed a few saints. "We do not like some of these songs. We will not sing some of these songs. We do not think God wrote some of these songs. We think the Christian Bible, like the Koran, has a few 'Satanic verses' stealthily inserted!"
And those who considered themselves to be nicer than God marveled greatly when their influence precipitously declined, and contempt for the God and Kingdom identified with them mounted.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 1:37:48 PM
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uzza
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Hello Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus:
I am called and chosen by God through Christ Jesus. I also happen to be an African American. Can any of you help me to understand why many within the White American Christendom get so caught up in only two attacks of the evil one? Homosexuality and Abortion. In my experiences within the African American communities, I don’t see that big of a push on anyone or two specific sins, but sin as a whole. I think the African American vote in the State of California spoke loudly about our community’s feelings towards the Gay agenda. Many of you seem to have a passion for certain sins but no voice in others.
Here is the Scripture that came to mind as I read the debates within this thread. Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
There appears to be extremism in many White American Christians. If you follow that Chapter of Philippians in verse 1- 8, Apostle Paul seems to paint a picture of Moderation. A little bit of speaking the truth and a little bit of loving can go a long way. Even within the tones behind this thread, there appears to be extremes.
I have another question. Why place labels on your association with Christ. Why do you use Conservative, Moderate, Liberal and other adjectives to describe your association with Christ Jesus? I always thought that Christ had no respect of person? Jew, Gentile, Free or Bond.
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 2:07:22 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
I am called and chosen by God through Christ Jesus. I also happen to be an African American.
My beloved brother! Welcome to the conversation!
I am a Christian on the other side of this ethnic divide, but rejoice to attend a church that looks a lot like heaven -- people from the whole spectrum worship around the Throne together on Sunday Morning at King's Park International Church.
On the one hand, as Christians we have an obligation to "blow the whistle" on the nefarious schemes of the evil doers, particularly the eugenics movement that has murdered so many of our dear brothers and sisters of color. If I recall correctly, African Americans comprised around 24% of our population a generation ago, and are down to 18% today. Many of the missing were violently murdered in tidy little clinics carefully placed in ethnic neighborhoods.
On the other hand, it's not enough to be "anti-abortion." To be truly pro-life means to cherish and protect life, to celebrate it using every means at our disposal.
In 1945, it was hard to find ex-Nazis in the German population. In 1995, it was hard to find ex-Stasis there. In fact, the headquarters of the domestic spying operation in the German Democratic Republic (East Germany) had a convenient fire that destroyed the records of the informants.
May God grant that, in another generation, folks will be hard-pressed to find anyone willing to confess that they had once pulled the lever for the Democratic ticket.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 2:33:33 PM
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uzza
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Hi, thanks for the warm welcome:
If I'm not mistaken, we have not had a great lose in population, but the percentages change due to the shifts in the Hispanic population. Yes abortion is a cause of death, so is gun violence, crack epidemic, aids and obesity.
My wife and I were watching a documentary on the meth epidemic that swept across the nations on Frontline.
My point is why such directional conversations towards those two sins. Is it not possible that polarization occurs due to extremism? How can two agree if you limit that which is place upon the table to communicate? Moderation allows you to find some common ground that two can began to walk together.
I have a question? Do you think that when God says where two are more are gathered in My Name, there I will be also is not available when a Democrat and Republican get together?
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 4:25:53 PM
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didymus101
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Sue, you have a habit of totally misrepresenting what I have said. Twice in this thread I said "as we are to submit to the governing authorities and in our form of government we are the ones who help to establish those authorities, it would appear that we have an obligation to vote." Yet you claim that I am against all political involvement. Why?
On a few occasions you have told me on certain topics it is not an either/or question, yet now you are making it so by insisting that as Americans we must be politically involved or we are not doing good. Is it only a CHRISTIAN duty in countries that allow for that process? Is "good" really to be measured in time, energy, and money spent on electing certain politicians that may or may not keep their promises or be the type of people their press releases say they are?
How did the early Christians bring down the cruel, pagan, and tyrannical government of Rome? Did they rebel, like the colonists? Did they write pamphlets criticizing local magistrates for their conduct? What sort of protest agianst the immoral practices of Rome did they organize?
Is the argument for them "doing nothing": "Oh, they couldn't do that because it was not a democratic process and then following that it was feifdoms and then it was kings. Christianity now has a voice in politics and we must use it."
You misunderstood the joke about the liberal thing, even though I took time to explain it again, and use that against me. (Was that explantion another post you missed?) RJR said Jesus was political because he attacked the "ruling class" which makes it into a class struggle which suggests what to you? In this "political activism" climate the angle of perception shifts, so that what is read in scripture is re-phrased in a political light. It can read that way, if that is what one is looking to find.
Your tone is usually accusatory and judgmental when you comment on my posts. It is just as easy to state your point backed up by scripture than looking to drag me down instead. Ask some questions, such as, "Are you saying that..." instead of taking one of my points where you assume it would lead and then arguing against that presumption you finally arrive at as if it were mine my view. Trying to clarify my view against rebuttals based on a false dichotomy, premise, or assumption is highly frustrating and pretty near impossible.
I have not assumed you to be this or that or that you are thinking this or that and then base my response on those presumptions. I have merely stated my view. No matter how far apart our views may be, I have not taken this as an adversarial discussion.
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 4:58:21 PM
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didymus101
Posts: 1211
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Welcome uzza, I hope that you enjoy your stay here and I am looking forward to more of your perspective.
What you brought up about the Christian community's high focus and two problem areas is part of this political polarization I am addressing in this thread. I recently voiced the same concern on this issue in a thread about pro-life. Your voice in that area is needed.
abbreviated, you claim: "Jesus Christ Himself was polarizing. "
"Christians are polarizing or should be."
Polarization is dividing one side against the other; it is an ongoing antagonism and an adversarial system of relating to one another.
We are not against the fallen world and its institutions (although the opposite view on that point seems popular among many Christians in this forum) nor are to be part of this fallen mechanism and use it against others in the world or of the church; that is being friends with the world and thus an enemy of God.
Living a righteous life is not an attack against the world, although the worldly take it to be placing "burning hot coals on their heads"; in other words, opposition is a one way affair and not intended polarizing by Christians. We are FOR the lost being saved. The great Commission is not to judge, condemn, fight against, or organize to defeat the world; it is to love them and give them the word, particularly in letting our light shine through good works.
Is being involved in partisan politics to be considered a good work? Or does it bring us into unnecessary and unscriptural opposition with others both within the church and in the world?
Essentially, the charge is that living the way the early Christians did is "doing nothing" and only being politically active, fighting against the world by legislation and through organizations, is doing something.
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 5:15:43 PM
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sue244
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From: Colorado
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Didymus, let me tell you about the extent of my political invovlement which will maybe help you know where I'm coming from. I vote. Right now I can't even tell you who the mayor of my town is. I've been to one tea party, to see what it was like and for the history of it all and was board out of my mind. I have also only been to one political rally in my life and that was when Former Presidnet George Bush spoke here in my town. That has been the first time in close to a hundred years a sitting president had spoken in my town and I was not going to pass on that oppertunity. Its the Historian in me what can I say.
So that is my view of political invovlement. Its very little on the grand scheme of things. I keep up with it more because its history in the making and I look at history through a geo-political lense. (I also look at it how God is working since History is really His Story but that dosn't work in a classroom but I just wanted to say that so I could not be jumped on for leaving God out of the Picture.)
So let me ask you straight up, do you think I'm too involved in politics.
I get it you think what the colonist did back in 1776 was wrong. But its a moot point because the Govt. that you and I are under is not the same form of govt. that produced the Declaration of Independence. Also the war had been going on for over a year before the document was even drafted let alone voted on so it has to be looked at in its historical context. So why you keep bringing them up does not make any sense to me.
I'll ask another question since you bring up the early church. IS there a divide between the sacred and the secular?
My answer is no there should not be a divide, I am Christian and therefore in all areas of my life this must be reflected from when I'm in church to when I'm the voting booth.
ETA:Didymus I think I have shown that I am willing to agree with you and say so publicaly when you make a statment that I agree with. Maybe thats counts for something, I don't know just wanted to throw that out there.
< Message edited by sue244 -- 2/10/2010 6:00:12 PM >
_____________________________
It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man. Spurgeon
Never let us be guilty of sacrificing any portion of truth on the altar of peace. Ryle
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 7:03:56 PM
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Mollymouser
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From: california, land of the happy cows
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I haven't seen any political polarization in the churches I've attended, either.
The members/attenders of the churches have varying political views, of course -- and I suspect that some of them even favor varying football teams, baseball teams, etc. I'm also told that there are both dog lovers as well as cat lovers in attendance, as well as people who (shudder) like country western music. And don't get me started on the great Coke v. Pepsi debate when it comes to church suppers. Yes, you'll find various political views, various races, various ethnic backgrounds, even differing socio-economic backgrounds. When it comes to worldly matters, we're hardly a look-alike, homogenous group.
But what unites us is our love for, faith in, and dependence on Jesus Christ. 
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MARRIED TO A MILITARY PILOT  PLEASE PRAY FOR OUR TROOPS!
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 7:35:28 PM
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Saltlight_2188
Posts: 1953
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From: the Wiregrass SE Alabama
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If Auburn and Alabama fans can get along together in the church, I figure liberals and conservatives oughtta be no problem!
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Lisa Lisa
Mercy triumphs over judgment
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 7:44:55 PM
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didymus101
Posts: 1211
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mollymouser, good point about football polarization: I hate the Cowboys and anyone in their right mind would also feel this way. This is definitely one thing the church should be united on.
If it is not obvious, I am being light-hearted. I enjoyed your point on the many things that we may not agree with that find their way into after-service conversations; it is something that I had overlooked.
I am not against dialogue between those who hold views that are opposed; this does not necessarily polarize.
Where I now live not identifying yourself as a Conservative Republican can cause difficulties; it is akin to saying "I am stupid" or worse, "I am anti-christ." You will not be burned at the stake but, with many, you will not get that call for activities and be somewhat coldly greeted at gatherings. I have refused to so identify myself with any political entity and it results in awkward moments.
Whether or not I was moved by the Holy Spirit, at a meeting of "The Full-gospel Businessman's Breakfast," which I have faithfully attended and been of service for a long time, I felt compelled at one gathering to stand mute at the Pledge of Allegiance as well as The National Anthem. All I can say is that at that time it felt dead-wrong to participate in those things.
It did not go unnoticed. It was, as I found out, in the private conversations of all the members and many others not remotely connected; no one but my closest friends there asked me why.
The next week I got a few half-hearted greetings, some angry stares, and afterwards was told by "a representative group" that my behavior was unacceptable. I was a disruptive element. These gentlemen also did not bother to ask me why.
Shortly after the confrontation, I started getting calls from those who said they supported an act of good conscience, even if they disagreed and others who said they had also been bothered by these demonstrations of patriotism in a gathering meant to honor God but had not been "bold enough" to act as I did. Three weeks later I was invited to speak on the matter. Mixed reviews but polite applause.
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RE: Political polarization within the church: what are ... - 2/10/2010 8:32:28 PM
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didymus101
Posts: 1211
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sue, when I initially saw that you had posted, I thought to myself, "I'm in for it now" but was instead delightfully surprised by your candor and non-confrontational style. Thank you, I truly appreciate getting to know you and your effort to do so.
To answer your questions. What is and what is not worldliness is the underlining question to this thread. The act of "good conscience" I mentioned in the previous thread had the inadvertant effect of polarizing members in that organiziation. It was one-sided.
I was not against them for what they were doing, I was merely responding to what I believed was a call from God.
I did not think less of them for their practice but only knew that I could no longer participate in it.
I did not see it as a me and them issue, which is the basis of polarization, but as a me and God coordination.
Whether or not I actually acted in "good conscience," whether or not I was actually "moved by the Holy Spirit," there was no "I am right, they are wrong" or "I am good, they are bad." All that concerned me--no, all that consummed me--was doing as I felt God asked me to do. When I finally allowed myself to say, "Yes, lord," (I had great trepidation at possibly hurting or angering people close to me) I had no thought of possible consequences or anything else. It was not that their feelings no longer mattered to me but that obedience totally occupied my mind.
The character of following His direction is not holding an oppositional view to another or some group; it is not being "against sonething": it is simple obedience to His will. There is no enemy I am reacting to or fighting against.
If God is speaking to you like this in your present political involvement, I see no problem whatsoever.
As to the question of the sacred and secular being didvided; phrasing that question in that way is misleading. It is similar to the lawyer asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife?": yes or no indicts.
And I am really glad you asked that question because it is one that causes both confusion and goes to the crux of so much polarization. It is the underlining purpose, as mentioned earlier, of this thread.
No part of life is, for the Christian, outside the spiritual. Spirit is to inform all circumstances and conditions, and all of our affairs. We do not live for ourselves and everything we do is to be done for Christ. No issue or problem, for the Christian, can be treated as something outside the kingdom of God and the body of believers.
The worldly are blind to this understanding; they do not have the spiritual discernment to realize God is sovereign and that all things are to be viewed through the righteousness of Christ.
"Secular" is that part of life which the Christian is to consider as "fallen" or lost. It is a lie; no such separation exists. All is under God's rule and influence, His will and plan.
Worldly, of which "secular" can almost be thought of as a synonym, are the fallen institutions and people in the world. The worldly can be simply thought of as being outside truth or outside the reality of our existence. It is not as the gnostics said, which was that the physical--all creation--was evil and opposed to the spiritual ideals. They believed a lesser god, or demi-urge, made the imperfect world. We know differnetly.
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