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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/8/2010 7:13:48 PM
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Patriciahere
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I think it sets the stage for the kind of life they had. They were loved but not cared for. The children's needs were sort of after thoughts in their parents lives. Most parents are more careful and attentive to what their children are doing and teach them about being careful--that some things can hurt badly and with serious consequences.
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Patricia Wonders
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/8/2010 9:03:18 PM
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Auben
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My feeling about that scene was that in most dysfunctional families (and sometimes just 'different' families) there is a heightened sense that you have to band together against the world. Maybe you just feel different from other families. Maybe its a maneuver to control and throw off blame. It's one way Wall's father can face his lack of care and protection for his daughter. He can create a common 'enemy' by exaggeration in order to cover his sins.
Personally that scene made me very angry.
< Message edited by Auben -- 2/8/2010 9:09:39 PM >
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Tamara
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/8/2010 10:11:33 PM
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Patriciahere
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Yes, Auben, I can understand what you are saying. Perhaps her father had used this them against us tactic his whole life. A way not to be responsible and he certainly did have some issues in that area. It is interesting that the kids seemed to be responsible kids--they did not place blame on others.
I am interested to see what happens with Brian--he seems to have a bit more difficulty in accepting his father's actions.
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Patricia Wonders
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/9/2010 9:34:10 AM
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Auben
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I wonder if Rex even realized he was doing it. I bet he grew up in a very emotionally abusive house. Sometimes we compensate by creating demons larger than ourselves.
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/9/2010 12:14:46 PM
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Liveloved
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What is safe?
I found as I read this book that I was being jolted out of 'my' ideas of what is right/wrong, safe/unsafe, responsible/irresponsible, caring/uncaring. . . all the time.
Are our ideas right?
For example, the mother wanted her children to learn by experience. She wanted her children not to be bound by rules and regulations. Yet we see so many families (and perhaps mothers more than fathers) where there is micromanagement going on, the mother is so involved that there is almost a symbiotic relationship.
So I was challenged by these examples. No, I do not think a three year old should be cooking at a gas stove.
But this mother obviously grew up constrained by dos and don'ts. It is why legalism does not work. There is rebellion. And her rebellion was dramatic.
Where is the 'safe' that is healthy, Christlike, and best for both parent and child?
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/9/2010 12:33:01 PM
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ajbx10
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To me, providing a "safe" environment for a child would be adequate food, clothing and shelter on a regular basis - at the very least. The parents in this story did not do this for their children. And alot of times, it was by their own doing and not because of circumstances beyond their control. The father and/or mother would frequently quit jobs and the entire family went hungry. These parents were not "safe". They couldn't be relied upon by their children.
Cheryl
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/9/2010 6:35:48 PM
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Patriciahere
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I am not sure I would call her parents mentally ill. Her father was certainly an alcoholic and perhaps mother was somewhat self absorbed.
I do think over protective parents can be just as troublesome as those that do not care enough.
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Patricia Wonders
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/9/2010 10:13:42 PM
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Liveloved
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So by what standard do we determine correct parenting, or parenting that is sufficient for basic needs of children?
Obviously these parents seem to be deficient in so many ways. Yet the children survived. And were tremendously resourceful. And in some ways the parents were very moral. They did not think they were the responsibility of others and took care of themselves (if we call it that).
And I found myself very fond of both of them and their quirky ways. Of course, that is easy because I have no expectations of them. Yet the author also seems to have a real respect and love for both of her parents. The book is not written out of anger or frustration at all. I do not sense blame being placed either. It is just an honest telling of life in her family.
So doesn't that lack of anger and blame make you think they did do some things very right?
What would you identify as those 'very right' things?
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/10/2010 12:41:28 AM
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Patriciahere
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From the this first section that we are discussing there is no anger or blaming by the children. But they are very young children and still are seeing their parents as protectors and providers and they are having adventures. I wonder what we will learn in the next section when the children are older and have a better understanding of what is happening in the family.
I do not know if the parents did anything "very right"--but I do not think they did everything "very wrong". In their own rather eccentric ways maybe they were doing the best they could. At this point in the book we know very little about their (the parents) formative years. If we do get some insights there it may be that thoughts about them will change.
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Patricia Wonders
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/11/2010 3:03:56 PM
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ajbx10
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What did you think of the very different ways the parents had reacted to the death of Mary Charlene ( crib death at 9 months old)? Did their reactions help you understand each parent better?
Cheryl
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/11/2010 6:54:28 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ajbx10
What did you think of the very different ways the parents had reacted to the death of Mary Charlene ( crib death at 9 months old)? Did their reactions help you understand each parent better?
Cheryl
Cheryl,
Do you have a page or approximation of page number so I can 'refresh' my memory? I'm thinking Rex was grieved and Mom took it in stride. Is that synopsis accurate? LL
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Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/11/2010 8:59:41 PM
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ajbx10
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Liveloved,
I don't have a page number because I'm reading on an ebook, and the page numbers are different from a paper version of the book. Yes, your synopsis is accurate.
Cheryl
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/12/2010 10:09:09 AM
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Auben
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I finally got a book!
As I was reading I was remembering how different raising children was a generation or two ago. It wasn't so strange to let children wander around or leave them somewhere while you stepped out. Like LL I was struck with how different our attitudes are toward raising children now.
I was also struck that perhaps Wall's mother wasn't entirely happy in her marriage, but it was marriage and once you said Yes you stuck with him and did what he said.
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/12/2010 1:26:51 PM
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Liveloved
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YEAH!!! Very true, Auben. In many ways we have become a culture that worships the children and this is happening among the Christian culture as well.
Among our friends (believing and unbelieving), I see this pattern. And I do not regard it as healthy or godly.
The mother in this story is the extreme but in many ways I found her attitudes wonderfully refreshing. She did not live in fear which is what the Lord desires to free us from (I John 4: 7-21) and instead He desires us to live in love. This woman, in some measure, believed her Catholic upbringing/teaching and trusted the Lord in all things. But her trust in some ways was pathology. For example, allowing a three year old to cook at a gas stove is NOT what trusting the Lord is all about.
But her example is something I think today's culture needs to look at and ponder and ask, how do I need to come into a measure of freedom that the Lord desires for me to live in?
When she lost her child to crib death, she accepted it. She was not clinging to her ideas about how life was supposed to be. She knew this was something she did not control.
Yet she chose not to control things she should have. Wasn't this a response (a pendulum swing to the far end) to her overcritical, domineering mother/upbringing? I think so.
As parents, we need to model the right balance between care and concern and loving parental interest rather than a fear based model of control.
The father seemed to drown his concern in the bottle. He did not know HOW to live and love and his response was just to 'check out' through alcohol abuse.
Neither parent lived love as Jesus would have us live. But I think we can learn by looking at their example.
Am I really living love to my children as God would desire? Or are my attitudes and actions fear based and therefore NOT godly?
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/13/2010 3:03:32 PM
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ajbx10
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quote:
As parents, we need to model the right balance between care and concern and loving parental interest rather than a fear based model of control.
Well stated, Liveloved. Lack of balance is neither healthy nor Christian.
Cheryl
P.S.
Are we starting section 3 - Welch - on Monday, or did I misunderstand the schedule? Please let me know.
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/13/2010 4:59:14 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ajbx10
quote:
As parents, we need to model the right balance between care and concern and loving parental interest rather than a fear based model of control.
Well stated, Liveloved. Lack of balance is neither healthy nor Christian.
Cheryl
P.S.
Are we starting section 3 - Welch - on Monday, or did I misunderstand the schedule? Please let me know.
I'm assuming we are doing the entire book beginning Monday as section 3 is the long section and section 4 & 5 complete the book. IOW, up to Welch has been the first half of the book. Sections 3-5 is the second half.
That's the way I would plan it but if others have a different plan, or if I'm forgetting what had previously been decided, let us know.
Otherwise, if no one speaks up, we'll plan on talking about the book in its entirety beginning Monday, 2/15.
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/15/2010 4:39:36 PM
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Auben
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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That sounds good to me. I'll be there later this week. I'm @ pg. 100 right now.
What strikes me is that wondering if Mary Walls is right. She says that kids who aren't loved are the ones who become problems. Her kids are loved so they are 'lucky.'
Considering what you've seen...no matter where you are in the book...do you think this is the case?
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/15/2010 6:42:14 PM
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Abbreviated
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I'm not sure leaving your kids to starve has anything to do with love unless one considers it the tough love kind & I'm not sure tough love involves not providing a basic need.
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Jackie
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/15/2010 8:54:03 PM
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ajbx10
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I think Mary Walls loved her children in her own way. She loved them with her emotions, but didn't put her love into action. I think she loved herself more than anyone else. If she really didn't care to be a mother, though, she had many opportunities to get rid of her children. Her mother would've taken them. She could've let them with a neighbor, or at the hospital, or at school and then leave town. She could've let child services take them when they came around at Welch. But she did none of these things. That told me she had to love the children in some way.
Cheryl
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/15/2010 10:43:41 PM
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Patriciahere
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I think that both Mary and Rex loved their children. But they were childish themselves and loved like children not as adults. It is like they never really matured into responsible adults. They were good at expecting love and respect from their children but not very good at giving it.
As for Rex he did not have parents who were good role models. His childhood must have been horrible.
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Patricia Wonders
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/16/2010 7:49:58 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Patriciahere
As for Rex he did not have parents who were good role models. His childhood must have been horrible.
I agree. And at the risk of giving something away, I believe there is a hint of that in the "Welch" section of the book.
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greatdivide46
He said he had been deeply worried about having a general aesthetic and had been delighted to be offered the epidural in his spine. -- Jane Elliott, BBC News
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/16/2010 10:28:07 AM
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Auben
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Is everyone in the Welch section? I think we don't have to hint anymore (unless someone is behind me...I'm starting Welch right now but I've read this before).
In some ways I think the kids felt that love and they were able to be successful, not just survivors repeating their parents' mistakes. But I think Walls could hardly document the ways in which her parents failures affected them as grownups (except for Maureen if I remember correctly). I don't think Walls could alienate her siblings for the book (and I don't want her to).
So what do you think? Is it just in their nature that they survived and become (mostly) responsible adults? Or was there something in the love they felt as children and the responsibility they took on themselves as older children/teens that helped form into people that could break the cycle?
I think the author felt her parents' love had something to do with who she became (based on her retelling of her mother's teaching experience and neighbor Billy).
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/16/2010 12:29:00 PM
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ajbx10
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quote:
So what do you think? Is it just in their nature that they survived and become (mostly) responsible adults? Or was there something in the love they felt as children and the responsibility they took on themselves as older children/teens that helped form into people that could break the cycle?
I think that as the children grew older and saw how other responsible people in Welch lived, they then knew that how their parents behaved was not right. Prior to that, I think they'd been kind of isolated or only associated with people that behaved like their parents. Seeing this made them want to live differently and have a better life. Also, teachers took interest in them and showed them that education was the key to their better life.
Tamara
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RE: Book Club--The Glass Castle - 2/16/2010 1:08:02 PM
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ajbx10
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One thing I couldn't understand: when the family lived in Welch and living conditions got so bad, why didn't the parents move back to the house they owned in Phoenix? Was it because they owed so much money back there? Why didn't they just sell the Phoenix house, then? It didn't make sense to me. Any ideas?
Cheryl
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