Fire everyone or take the time to see where the problem lies??
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 2/24/2010 6:53:42 PM
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his_chosen
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Didn't click on the link, but I heard that on the radio this afternoon!
How do we know that it is all the teacher's fault? Are the kids coming to school ready to learn? Have they gotten a good night's sleep? Have they eaten breakfast? Have they done their homework? Are the parents involved in their child's education? Far too often, children who are failing school have parents who treat school as free babysitting.
A friend of mine is a public school teacher. She teaches in a poor neighborhood and requests "at risk" students. The parents don't care. They can't be bothered to help the kid do home work. She has an uphill battle trying to teach these kids. She does make progress with them. However, the only way schools evaluate progress is by standardized testing. The kids don't care about testing. They randomly fill in bubbles. Even though they could easily pass the test, they fail because they never even tried to pass the test. My friend is judged by these test results.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 2/24/2010 7:38:47 PM
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heremainsfaithful
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You make some good points, his chosen. But this is what we do now. Bad scores? Teacher's fault. Johnny can't read? Schools are bad. Let's pass more unfunded mandates. Sadly, there are some edited TOS 5 teachers out there. They shouldn't be teaching. But there are also some edited TOS 5 parents out there. And I am not sure what it is like in other states, but here kids spend more than the equivalent of two weeks in assessments and testing. Wonder what they would learn if we spent those two weeks oh, I don't know, TEACHING?
Obviously, this school has some problems to address. But in education, a non-renewal is a death knell. Future school systems see that and run in the other direction. It is very hard to get a job with a non-renewal or revoking of tenure. There has to be some other way to fix this.
< Message edited by Kath -- 3/1/2010 12:37:08 PM >
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 2/24/2010 8:42:00 PM
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stampinlady
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"Of the 800 students, 65 percent are Hispanic and for most of them, English is a second language. Half the students are failing every subject, with 55 percent skilled in reading and 7 percent proficient in math, officials said."
Do you think that maybe these students need to take some of their tests in Spanish? I think there was a district in Il where they were thinking about doing this.
I don't see how the board can fire everyone without having tuns of law suites.
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Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 2/24/2010 9:07:31 PM
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RainbowSkies
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quote:
How do we know that it is all the teacher's fault?
I would ask if they aren't proficient, then how is it that they get passed on to the next grade. I know alot of them are Spanish speaking, but at the same time, they still need to be held to the same standards. We have a very large Albanian community here, and those kids who aren't particularly proficient in speaking English are held to the same standards as the kids who grew up speaking English. I just don't know when it is fair and when it isn't.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 2/24/2010 9:15:47 PM
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iluvatar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
"Of the 800 students, 65 percent are Hispanic and for most of them, English is a second language. Half the students are failing every subject, with 55 percent skilled in reading and 7 percent proficient in math, officials said."
Do you think that maybe these students need to take some of their tests in Spanish? I think there was a district in Il where they were thinking about doing this.
I don't see how the board can fire everyone without having tuns of law suites.
From the article:
quote:
Under new federal requirements for school reform, low-performing schools have several options. One is called the transformation model, which includes a series of changes that teachers agree to adopt. When the negotiations on those changes failed at Central Falls High, the superintendent switched to another option: the turnaround model, which means firing every teacher at the troubled school.
It sounds like it's one of the options available to the school board when under federal pressure.
This morning, CNN reported that many of the teachers were making around $75K/yr. I'm the first to advocate higher wages for everybody, but that sounded a bit out of whack to me when the median income in the town was reported to be in the low 20's and the school was performing so poorly.
It's interesting to note that the principal and 3 assistant principals were also canned. According to the article, the superintendent has only been there for a little over 3 years: I wonder if this was just a ploy to get rid of the dead wood in the administration and old-guard teachers who were being stodgy and ineffective. It'll be interesting to see what comes of this and how many of the old teachers get rehired.
-Dan.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 2/24/2010 11:06:00 PM
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GregandJenny
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The students need to be tested and placed in the correct grade levels accordingly. They don't need to be passed on until they meet the standards.
I think one of the biggest problems with these "tests" are they don't take into consideration where the kids academic History. if a test is given at grade 10 and a student fails it, i would argue that the problem isn't with the grade 10 teachers but the previous teachers. The previous teachers may not even be in the district.
I think pre entry grade level testing would fix this. If you were in a previous school district in grade 6 and you only test only in grade 4 in your new one then guess what, you're going back to grade 4.
G
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 2/25/2010 8:56:22 AM
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his_chosen
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I know standardized testing is the easiest and probably most economical. However, I don't think they always show what the kid knows. I home school my kids. I know what they know. We work one-on-one every day. Our state requires standardized testing at the end of the year. Two of my kids test very well. They know the tests are important and work hard to do their best. One kid couldn't care less and is careless. One kid tests very poorly. He panics, over-thinks questions, etc. He can fly through his math day in, day out, but on the Iowa Basics he always tests poorly.
I do find it frustrating that schools aren't open to asking for help when they need it. A friend of mine is a reading teacher. She is frustrated becasue she works with these kids but what these kids really need is for someone to read with them on a regular basis. Uh, yah, parents would be the most obvious but these parents aren't willing to do it. I had a therapy dog and we do library reading programs all the time. I'd love to work with these kids! We got a flat out NO! They don't need help.
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You have a choice. You can throw in the towel or you can use it to wipe the sweat off your face.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 2/25/2010 11:08:03 AM
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stampinlady
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quote:
I know standardized testing is the easiest and probably most economical. However, I don't think they always show what the kid knows.
I totally agree with this, that's why I like the idea of testing kids, who are struggling in English, in their own language.
Chicago is dealing with "turn around" school and I guess the teachers union isn't fond of this. There was something on the news this morning about a few "turn around" schools and I'll find the story and post it.
I just don't see the sense in "throwing out the baby with he bath water."
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Deb
There is no "cosmic dog whislte. It's gonna be loud folks !!!
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 2/25/2010 11:09:42 AM
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heremainsfaithful
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It is unfortunate that some schools do not make as much use out of community resources as they could. Part of this may be liability. In our system, you just bout have to give your blood to work with kids for safety reasons. All it would take is one pedophile or other weirdo getting into the classroom. And you are right about high stakes testing. It is interesting, in its infancy, much of this testing was intended to be diagnostic - i.e. what does this child need educationally? It was only after other interests got involved that these tests became a measuring stick for teachers' value.
I hate, as a teacher, that a statistically small percentage of teachers stay in education or enter education when they would be better served as far from a school as possible. I blame universities for this as well. The more students, the more money your dept gets, so let's just let anyone in.
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Jer. 29:11, II Tim. 2:13, Jude 24, 25
https://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.aspx?bookid=58896
Eihstein's IQ may be higher than mine, but God's IQ is higher than anyone's.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/12/2010 12:21:40 AM
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luvsrickforever
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It's funny but in my preschool, Head Start, they let 3 teachers go in 2009. 2 had 2 degrees each but were not very child friendly. By that I'm assuming they meant they were not like me, who is a sub. They didn't play with the kids much, even though we really aren't supposed to. They didn't get hugs everyday like I do when I am there. They didn't do a lot of fun things with the kids like I do. I don't have the degrees to be a reg. teacher. They called it that when I asked one of the teachers although they are always complaining about the budget and how they don't have any money to pay anybody. We have 2 teachers in our school who get paid more than the others. The rest make a lower pay scale and these were 2 of them. Another teacher, who had been there since 1998 came to school one day and they told her to go home, she didn't have a job anymore! When she was hired, she didn't have a degree either and she never got one but they kept her on. Go figure! The kids today will say "I miss Big Gail". They remember.
In my state of CT 100 teachers are being laid off in one town due to budget cuts and not money for them. Can you believe that? I have no idea what kind of teachers these are but I remember a time when teachers taught until they retired and only got let go if they did something wrong, not because we can't afford to have teachers anymore. Then they wonder why other countries are beating us out in the school game? I'll bet they have all their teachers. I also agree it has to do with the parents too. In my preschool, try to get the parents to come to any parent meetings or the moms or dads club even though they will get a free meal and do something like a craft or something or learn something that will help their child. We even have babysitting! How much more do they want? We help our parents so much compared to when I was in school in the 60's, yet more parents went to things in school back then, then they do now. Maybe it's a generational thing? I know my parents always went. We have all our things after school and not very late at night.
My nephew has watched Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader with me and he is in 6th grade. He says he never had any of those classes in 5th grade or any of the other grades either. He didn't get very many questions right and he just went to 5th grade. 5th grade was a long time ago for me. My niece, who is 15, says the same thing. We weren't taught any of that in 5th grade or those other grades. So does that mean some schools are teaching different things from other schools? If that's the case, and it seems so here, then that could be another reason we are behind other countries. My nephew says he hasn't been taught Cursive yet! He said they learned how to make an A and that was it. He can't read my writing but he can read my printing. What's going to happen when he has to sign his name somewhere or will it be so computerized that he won't even have to do that anymore? I learned Cursive in 3rd grade I think.
I don't know what the answer is but it's not getting rid of perfectly good teachers because of budget cuts. If they want to test the teachers, why don't they test them and not the kids? When you have a teacher saying When I went on a walk I seen instead of saw or that Potatoes grow on trees, or Who can tell the difference between a chick or a duck anyway (all teachers with college degrees by the way and some had 2) and a sub has to tell the kids what is right, maybe they should give me the job! I hope I didn't ramble to much.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/17/2010 1:32:09 AM
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Dakotasunbeam
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I heard about this school. It isn't the language, because I've heard of many stories where people who spoke little or no english came to the US went to school made good grades and went on to college.
Sonething is wrong with these schools. In my oppinion, a school like that is a waste. If nobody is learning or passing anything, what REALLY is the point of the school? We're just wasting everyone's time.
Something needs to be done. The methods for teaching must be changed. Class sizes reduced.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/17/2010 8:04:08 AM
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garsyt
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quote:
Class sizes reduced.
Would be nice. But it's not likely to happen. Not with schools facing some of the biggest budget crunches in ages.
Garsy
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/18/2010 1:42:43 AM
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luvsrickforever
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When I went to grade school there were 40 kids in my class. I don't think there is even close to 40 kids in any classes in the schools in my town. From what I've heard, class size is small compared to when I went and from k-8 each class had 40.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/18/2010 3:26:47 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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I don't know what you are supposed to do. I live outside of St Louis. Our public schools in the county of St Louis have some amazing shools. But within the city limits? I shudder to think of them. They are beyond failing. They have not been accredited for years. Finally, the state stepped in and took over. It seems that the only thing they all do is fight. The children are not educated, not even a little. Their "brightest stars" could barely make it in the county schools not 15 miles away. I am not sure what you do.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/18/2010 11:07:05 PM
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garsyt
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quote:
I am not sure what you do.
Well a good start would be to put more control back in the hands of individual districts and individual states.
Another good step would be to allow charter schools to come in and in many cases replace public schools.
How about REQUIRING parents to put in a least 10 hours of volunteer time each year PER child if not more?
How about offering open enrollment and allowing parents to choose where they want their children to go?
How about making funding PER child REGARDLESS of where they go to school and making it even across the board. Just because one comes form a rich or poor community shouldn't determine the amount of funding coming from the taxes we pay. One thing they could do here in Indiana is allow our tax dollars for education to STAY in the communities they come from. AS it is my tax dollars are even with the referendum that we passed last Spring - all go to the state and then dished out based on the number of kids in a district and the number of kids on free and reduced meals.
One thing I do know - IF there is no support, no backing, no involvement from home - Kids will have to fight awfully hard to succeed and many won't.
I don't think totally firing everyone will do much to help failing schools turn around, UNLESS this has been a situation that has been studied over a period of time and the teachers were informed of the possibility if things didn't turn around.
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/28/2010 11:11:03 PM
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luvsrickforever
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There was just something on our CT news about teachers being fired. They didn't say which ones but it was not because they are not doing their job, it was because of budget cuts. They may even close a school or 2 in that town. The teachers were crying, saying where were they going to find other teaching jobs? Then they complain that kids in schools overseas are smarter than the kids in our country. Gee, I can't imagine why! If we keep getting rid of teachers and closing schools, it's no wonder. However, I don't agree with what some schools are doing by getting rid of recess and outside play so kids can learn more at school. A lot of kids live in neighborhoods where it's not safe to go outside and play. The only place they can play is in school. They need to have a rest from all that studying and learning. I think they need it, they don't need to have it taken away.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/30/2010 9:23:09 AM
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theprincessbuttercup
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One of my friends did her dissertation on recess and test scores. According to her data, test scores actually suffered when recess was taken away. Very interesting.
One thing no one will tell you about teachers unions is that they are designed to protect the lowest common denominator. Yes, there are cases when a really good teacher is fired over something. But the teachers who have their reps on speed dial are not usually the brightest ones. So when all this "firing the terrible teachers" stuff comes down, the teachers who need to union to keep their jobs because they are sub par pull out the big guns. The really strong teachers may not even be in the union, or their professionalism makes it hard for them to make a big stink. So guess which teachers you end up with? The stinkers. And the great ones move somewhere else. So now instead of kids having lots of good teachers and a couple of duds, they have a lot of duds and a couple of good ones.
There needs to be some way to hold teachers (along with parents and politicians) accountable that doesn't shred morale to bits.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/30/2010 1:46:59 PM
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theprincessbuttercup
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That three prong process is brilliant. Any way you could get yourself appointed as the director of education or something????
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/30/2010 2:20:58 PM
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laura...
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quote:
Half the students are failing every subject, with 55 percent skilled in reading and 7 percent proficient in math, officials said.
I don't think they've gone too far.
Certainly standardized testing could fail to accurately show proficiency in some students but not over 50% of the student body. Half the students failing EVERY subject?
The district did not vote to fire the entire faculty because of the school's low performance. They were fired because they wouldn't come to an agreement about compensation for additional work hours.
quote:
In a proposal based on federal guidelines, Gallo asked teachers to work a longer school day of seven hours and tutor students weekly for one hour outside school time. She proposed teachers have lunch with students often, meet for 90 minutes every week to discuss education and set aside two weeks during summer break for paid professional development.
A spokesman for the union said the teachers had accepted most of the changes, but wanted to work out compensation for the extra hours of work.
The superintendent said the two sides could not agree on a pay rate.
quote:
iluvatar said:
This morning, CNN reported that many of the teachers were making around $75K/yr. I'm the first to advocate higher wages for everybody, but that sounded a bit out of whack to me when the median income in the town was reported to be in the low 20's and the school was performing so poorly.
At $75k a year I would think a few more hours a week to increase the school's performance shouldn't be too much to ask.
Up to 50% of the faculty can be rehired. And, of course, now that they've all been fired the union is hoping the school will reconsider as the union is more willing to negotiate.
quote:
McLaughlin said the negotiations were about job security, not pay, and said the teachers are ready to resume talks.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/30/2010 10:54:27 PM
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Dakotasunbeam
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It's a serious problem. If I were a parent, they'd get more than just complaining from me.
They need to reduce class sizes as I stated above. This is our future we are talking about.
Second they need to change the curriculum. Most of that stuff is trash. Cut out all of the miscelleneous junk like computers and sex ed (everyone figures that stuff out anyway). Get back to basics, like teaching people how to read, pronounce words, and add and subtract. These are the tools children need. Discipline from school masters. its not hard. It used to be that a kid could go to school and be competent in society. Now it's just a joke. And even the so-called "good" schools are laughable; these days. It's a good thing college is now dumbed down, or even those in the "good schools" wouldn't make it in.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/31/2010 10:53:45 AM
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theprincessbuttercup
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If pay really was the root of the issue, that really disappoints me. Of course, I think teachers are professional who should be paid for what they do, but really, haggling over a few extra hours? I go to workshop and meetings all the time that are outside of school hours. It's part of honing your skills and being a better teacher.
I remember one time at the beginning of a year, our principal told us that we needed to be here at 7:05 instead of 7:10 so everyone would be ready to take kids when the 7:15 bell rang. A third grade teacher asked, "Does that mean we can leave at 2:55 instead of 3:00?" It was one of those moments where the rest of us just tried to stare at the floor in embarrassment for her. Good grief.
I still think that part of the problem we face is how to manage the classroom. When infractions had REAL consequences and kids didn't get 15 chances before there was a consequence, the rules meant more. At our school, we are encouraged to reward positive behavior and discouraged from pointing out negative behavior in hopes that the problem students will see the others' rewards and come around. Sometimes when a kid is totally disruptive and constantly interfering with instruction, he just needs to be kicked to the office so the other kids can learn. I guarantee that if teachers spent the time they waste managing behavior for teaching, test scores would skyrocket.
I don't mean to imply kids are "bad." I can count on one hand (maybe part of 2) the number of kids in our school who are truly consistent problems, but all it takes is a couple in a class sometimes.
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 3/31/2010 11:37:30 AM
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garsyt
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quote:
I still think that part of the problem we face is how to manage the classroom. When infractions had REAL consequences and kids didn't get 15 chances before there was a consequence, the rules meant more. At our school, we are encouraged to reward positive behavior and discouraged from pointing out negative behavior in hopes that the problem students will see the others' rewards and come around. Sometimes when a kid is totally disruptive and constantly interfering with instruction, he just needs to be kicked to the office so the other kids can learn. I guarantee that if teachers spent the time they waste managing behavior for teaching, test scores would skyrocket.
rewarding good behavior is GREAT! It's catching the "bad" kids being good that is difficult and THAT'S when rewarding good behavior WORKS!! In the art room where I'm a volunteer aide - we have a 4 step procedure. The child gets a warning. In the art room that warning comes when you are not treating materials wisely, being loud during instructions, arguing, running in the classroom, or generally out of control. The second time an adult has to speak to you about your behavior you leave your project at your table and are to sit in the back of the room for a predetermined amount of time based on grade level. Upon returning to your seat if a 3rd warning is needed you sit in the back of the room til the end of class. If you continue to act up it's directly to the principals office. Our new art teacher has also had to institute heads down quiet time as a whole for the entire class with some classes. BUT it's hard to do this when you have only 30 minutes twice a week for art. It needs to be tweaked some I think. NOTHING gets accomplished some weeks in some classes and there have been times when I've gotten frustrated enough to raise my voice a bit in the classroom. Especially with our 4th and 5th graders. I can't stand disrespect in the classroom and do NOT tolerate it at all and I WILL stand up for teachers when there is blatant disrespect.
There are a few youngsters in our school building that have developed a healthy "fear" of me. In other words they know I mean business and I will call their parents if I have to. I've only done that twice. But some how they all know. I never told and the one child has never told that I called his mother for a GOOD report. But he still realizes that if I can call to report a good thing - I'll call to report a bad as well.
I also believe that parents need to spend some time volunteering in their child's school. It would be great to have more Dads volunteering! Just being involved with a child's education often makes ALL the difference in the world! Now yes there are a few that will be stinkers regardless of your involvement, but most kids shape up pretty quickly when they realize that Mom or Dad or a Grandparent just might be in the building and WILL do something about your behavior if necessary.
Blessings,
Garsy
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"And I usually agree with Garsy, so I'll be quiet now." Stellaluna - July 2010
My Blog: www.moredayslikethisplease.wordpress.com
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RE: Fire everyone or take the time to see where the pro... - 4/9/2010 12:31:29 PM
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ProudParent
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I visited my son's school recently, I don't know what to say.
It didn't look like a darn thing was happening, the teachers were sitting at their computers most of the day and my son is failing english and history.
I do not know what to do, but I can't afford a Christian school and I don't think it might be too different there either!
They told me to go find a tutor.
The math class was fine.
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Fire everyone or take the time to see where the problem... - 
Because our board realized how important it was. It was one thing they fought very hard to keep in the 10 yrs we have been a school, it was very hard for them to eliminate.
